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+----- Thread: Out of position penalty (/showthread.php?tid=4936)
Out of position penalty - 7hawk77 - 09-28-2017
So I don't think an out of position penalty is going to be a good solution.
It would basically require way more work on Er to go in and manually change the out of position players. And he has plenty of crap to do already.
I'm looking in to the DT vs DE a bit more. I think the solution will probably have to do with a weight adjustment, where DE cannot weigh more than a defensive tackle (such as run stopper DE weighing more than an interior rusher DT while having 10 more speed and 10 more tackling)
Out of position penalty - kckolbe - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 08:07 AM)7hawk77 Wrote:I'm looking in to the DT vs DE a bit more. I think the solution will probably have to do with a weight adjustment, where DE cannot weigh more than a defensive tackle (such as run stopper DE weighing more than an interior rusher DT while having 10 more speed and 10 more tackling)
Could you look into S at LB, too?
Out of position penalty - 7hawk77 - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 09:11 AM)kckolbe Wrote:Could you look into S at LB, too?
Absolutely.
I'd like to point out that safeties are universally smaller as far as weight compared to linebackers.
This makes them a bit weaker at stopping the run than the LB counterparts. I was more bringing up the DE vs DT since there is 1 archetype that is basically better than a DT archetype while also having a weight advantage.
The Safety vs. LB does not have this specific weight problem.
Also, Timeconsumer pointed out some pretty good reasoning on why verns is picking up so many tackles. It's very possible that it's a product of the environment that he is in. Either way I'll play around with the sim to see what I can learn.
Out of position penalty - kckolbe - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 08:19 AM)7hawk77 Wrote:Absolutely.
I'd like to point out that safeties are universally smaller as far as weight compared to linebackers.
This makes them a bit weaker at stopping the run than the LB counterparts. I was more bringing up the DE vs DT since there is 1 archetype that is basically better than a DT archetype while also having a weight advantage.
The Safety vs. LB does not have this specific weight problem.
Also, Timeconsumer pointed out some pretty good reasoning on why verns is picking up so many tackles. It's very possible that it's a product of the environment that he is in. Either way I'll play around with the sim to see what I can learn.
See, *I* thought the weight would be a problem, but if you watch the OC v SJS game, Lewith owned Jenkins, who is a POWER back, stopping him constantly for short yardage. Yes, that is anecdotal evidence, but by all logic, Lewith should have been getting trucked with his low weight and lower strength.
In Verns' case, you can very much argue that a high TPE player is cleaning up the mess from rookies around him. I completely buy it, especially given that Verns' numbers were so much lower last year. For Lewith, though, I really can't explain it. And he isn't just doing well, he is #1 in tackles.
Tuck has well over 400 TPE. While he may be benefiting from playing DT as a DE, he would be good regardless. Lewith is arguably the best LB in the league in stats despite having UNDER 200 TPE, less than some S3 LBs. The two situations are not comparable. I am not saying that DE at DT isn't an issue, but I don't see how people can be more outraged at that than Lewith's completely undeserved success.
Out of position penalty - ErMurazor - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 08:31 AM)kckolbe Wrote:See, *I* thought the weight would be a problem, but if you watch the OC v SJS game, Lewith owned Jenkins, who is a POWER back, stopping him constantly for short yardage. Yes, that is anecdotal evidence, but by all logic, Lewith should have been getting trucked with his low weight and lower strength.
In Verns' case, you can very much argue that a high TPE player is cleaning up the mess from rookies around him. I completely buy it, especially given that Verns' numbers were so much lower last year. For Lewith, though, I really can't explain it. And he isn't just doing well, he is #1 in tackles.
Tuck has well over 400 TPE. While he may be benefiting from playing DT as a DE, he would be good regardless. Lewith is arguably the best LB in the league in stats despite having UNDER 200 TPE, less than some S3 LBs. The two situations are not comparable. I am not saying that DE at DT isn't an issue, but I don't see how people can be more outraged at that than Lewith's completely undeserved success.
I think one thing one the LB front is that we're considering racking up tackles to be a success. That just means they're fast. I can look up missed tackles later, but they're probably high in those categories. I think the same could be said for Lewith who is surrounded by a bunch of terrible LBs.
Our gameplan against the Otters was to pound the ball into Verns all game because he was a safety playing LB and the result was Mack having one of his best games and us getting the win despite Verns having a million tackles.
Theoretically you could apply the same idea to people who are playing DEs instead of DTs in the middle. I think the biggest advantage being utilized by teams is lining DEs up in the middle is because they're generally higher TPE than DTs around the league and most teams have shitty offensive lines in the interior. If I can line up a player with 500+ TPE against a player with 100, I'm going to do it.
If we're going to limit where people can line-up I think all offensive lineman should also have to declare as a guard, tackle, or center so they're as limited as DL.
Out of position penalty - 7hawk77 - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 09:31 AM)kckolbe Wrote:See, *I* thought the weight would be a problem, but if you watch the OC v SJS game, Lewith owned Jenkins, who is a POWER back, stopping him constantly for short yardage. Yes, that is anecdotal evidence, but by all logic, Lewith should have been getting trucked with his low weight and lower strength.
In Verns' case, you can very much argue that a high TPE player is cleaning up the mess from rookies around him. I completely buy it, especially given that Verns' numbers were so much lower last year. For Lewith, though, I really can't explain it. And he isn't just doing well, he is #1 in tackles.
Tuck has well over 400 TPE. While he may be benefiting from playing DT as a DE, he would be good regardless. Lewith is arguably the best LB in the league in stats despite having UNDER 200 TPE, less than some S3 LBs. The two situations are not comparable. I am not saying that DE at DT isn't an issue, but I don't see how people can be more outraged at that than Lewith's completely undeserved success.
So the SJS LB core is pretty much hot garbage. We are still using our inactive first round draft pick from season 1. I think this might also be a product of the environment. Like I said, I'll look in to it. I can't play with the sim currently.
Out of position penalty - timeconsumer - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 11:31 AM)kckolbe Wrote:but by all logic, Lewith should have been getting trucked with his low weight and lower strength.
You're using actual football logic. Not the logic of the sim. Strength is important for linebackers, but it's not like strength vs strength if you can tackle them or not. Doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way with weight either. The reason Lewith could tackle Jenkins and Verns could tackle Durden is because they were there. You don't have to be better, you only have to be first.
Out of position penalty - Bzerkap - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 10:19 AM)timeconsumer Wrote:You're using actual football logic. Not the logic of the sim. Strength is important for linebackers, but it's not like strength vs strength if you can tackle them or not. Doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way with weight either. The reason Lewith could tackle Jenkins and Verns could tackle Durden is because they were there. You don't have to be better, you only have to be first.Which is unfortunate
Out of position penalty - kckolbe - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 09:19 AM)timeconsumer Wrote:You're using actual football logic. Not the logic of the sim. Strength is important for linebackers, but it's not like strength vs strength if you can tackle them or not. Doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way with weight either. The reason Lewith could tackle Jenkins and Verns could tackle Durden is because they were there. You don't have to be better, you only have to be first.
I know that you are an authority on this, but it was explained to me that weight was very important. If it's not, then that's all the more reason to ban higher speed positions from playing at lower speed ones. Really, if weight doesn't affect tackling, I will switch to CB.
Out of position penalty - timeconsumer - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 03:51 PM)kckolbe Wrote:I know that you are an authority on this, but it was explained to me that weight was very important. If it's not, then that's all the more reason to ban higher speed positions from playing at lower speed ones. Really, if weight doesn't affect tackling, I will switch to CB.
Depends on the position. Not very significant for linebackers as long as you aren't 120lbs.