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+---- Thread: *A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown (/showthread.php?tid=11226)
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*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - YoungTB - 12-05-2018
S8 was a very crazy time for the Liberty. They were riding high after their first Ultimus win led by Philly legend Tyler Oles. However, they were a very old team and would soon need a rebuild. New GMs @PDXBaller and @kckolbe were looking to tear down this old roster sooner rather than later and set the Liberty up for the future. At the time, the idea of tearing down a roster that was capable of winning another Ultimus was crazy. However, what PDX and Kolbe were moves that would set forth “The Process” as Philly has coined it.
So, at the S8 trade deadline, five key trades went down that would change the future of Philly and the future of the league forever. Let’s take a look at these trades almost 3 seasons later and see who won each trade.
Trade 1: The Kamaka Trade
receives:DT Eli Kamaka (would later be traded back to Philly with Andre Bly Jr. in return for PHI S12 2nd ((Logan Lejune))
PHI S9 1st (Kolby Deringer) (would later be traded to San Jose for S9 1st NOLA ((Oskar Ludvig)) and 10 million in S9 cap)
receives:COL S9 1st (Marquise Brown)
COL S10 1st (Adriana Falconi)
COL S10 2nd (A.J. Robertson)
Verdict: So, in total, Colorado gave up Eli Kamaka (retired), Andre Bly Jr., Kolby Deringer, Marquise Brown, Adriana Falconi, and A.J. Robertson (inactive) for Logan Lejune, 10 million in S9 cap, and Oskar Ludvig (inactive).
This is an abomination.
Colorado gave up 5 active players for Lejune. I know he looks promising, but Jesus H. Christ. Colorado could have completely rebuilt itself and then some had they not accepted this trade. They would have had their QB for the future, their RB of the future and present, a stud somewhat active CB (to be fair he was planning on leaving Colorado anyway), and a stud LB. Without this trade, maybe Applehort could have even stayed, and then we’re talking about a potential Ultimus roster.
I can kinda see what they were thinking in terms of why they accepted this trade. At the time, Philly was looking to be a better team but ultimately they blew it all up at the deadline. Colorado didn’t quite know what that team was going to look like, but they knew that it was gonna be bad, and that they’d potentially be getting a better pick out of the trade. To add on to this, they gain a beast in Kamaka. S10 Colorado was poised to do some great things, so that’s why they add on the two S10 picks. So to them, they move up a spot in the draft to get a stud in a pretty nice draft, while ultimately giving up very little. But actually, Colorado ends up the worse team and Philly gets the better pick out of it. They pick Marquise Brown… and the rest is history. Colorado now has a chance to take Kolby Deringer or even Declan Harp, and if they do, then you could maybe consider this trade less of an abomination for COL. But no… they trade up two spots and take a now inactive Oskar Ludvig instead… what???
The next season, S9, Colorado finishes off with a decent 8-6 season and they make the playoffs, but ultimately get shellacked by Baltimore. Sure, this is fine. They just need to grab a couple of studs from this draft and they could be looking at a very bright future. Nope. They traded their first and second picks, which ended up being Adriana Falconi and A.J. Robertson (who’s now inactive). Now I will admit, outside of the first round, this draft isn’t the greatest. Colorado could have had their pick with Hondo, Grithead, Von Matt, and others. They didn’t really need a QB (at the time). If they weren't enthused about the class, they could have even traded the pick to get some better talent or picks for the future.
Either way, this trade is a disaster to look at, and had this not gone through, they could have been an Ultimus contending team right about now had Applehort stayed, which I can assume he would have with all of the talent that the team could have had. This trade is a huge L for Colorado, and an even bigger W for Philly.
Trade 2: The Hendrix Trade
receives: LB Micah Hendrix (S2) **S8 Salary 100% retained by Liberty**
** If Hendrix retires before S8 Ultimus Wraiths receive PHI S10 3rd** (this didn’t happen)
receives: YKW S10 2nd (Jordan Von Matt)
Verdict: I’d say this trade was even, maybe leaning slightly towards Philly. Yellowknife got one of the best LBs in the league in Hendrix. He was a key piece in their Ultimus winning season. However, Hendrix ended up retiring after S9, leaving YKW giving up a young stud WR in Jordan Von Matt for a two-year rental. Granted this rental helped them win an Ultimus, but in terms of playing for the future, Philly gains the advantage. I feel like they could have gotten more for Hendrix, but I’m not sure how negotiations went.
Trade 3: The Kroetch Trade
receives:RB Damien Kroetch (inactive)
receives: COL S9 3rd (apparently traded somewhere along the line to OCO, the pick ended up being Young Spaghetti ((inactive)))
Verdict: Meh, I’ll give this one to Colorado, but this trade is pretty much a wash. I wish I knew what Philly got in return for the COL 3rd rounder, then I’d be able to judge the trade more fairly.
Trade 4: The Melamedov Trade
receives:CB Clifford Rove (inactive)
DL/FS Vikian Melamedov (inactive)
7M in cap space for S8
receives:BAL S9 4th (Blake Marchand ((inactive)))
Scrub Kyubee (inactive)
BAL S10 3rd (Rico Flores ((inactive)))
Verdict: Baltimore wins this trade. They got Melamedov who was apparently a stud (can’t find much info on him), and helped Baltimore win a ring, and they gave up practically nothing for him. Can’t find much info on Kyubee either.
Trade 5: The DiMirio Trade
receives: PHI S9 4th (Shadarien LaMellana ((inactive)))
TE Paul Dimirio
DT Godfrey King (inactive)
2M S8 Salary Cap
recieves: NOLA S10 2nd (ended up being traded to BAL, can’t find much info on how that happened. Pick ended up being S Damien Arnold ((inactive)))
YKW S9 3rd (Robert Jordan ((inactive)))
WR - Stormblessed (inactive)
DT - Omar Wrong (inactive)
Verdict: Yeah I’ll give this one to NOLA. They got Dimirio and didn’t give up too much for him, and he helped win them an Ultimus. Philly was able to get their process era WR2 in this one in Stormblessed and a solid defensive lineman in Omar Wrong that I’m pretty sure has retired. Not much else to say about this one.
Overall, very interesting to look at these trades today and judge them, and I’m still in shock about how Philly fleeced the hell out of Colorado.. and in a sense.. how Colorado ended up fleecing themselves at the end of the day. Without these trades, the process would look very different than it looked over the past couple of seasons. Without PDX, Kolbe, and @adam2552, would there even be a process? So, to that I say thank you, mainly to the guys mentioned above and to Colorado for being so stupid. It's safe to say that Me, Falc, and JVM would not look good in Yeti red.
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - dropbear - 12-05-2018
Cool to see someone break down trades over time like this, but it has some pretty clear pitfalls.
We acquired Kamaka as our team was on the way up. He was part of our first win after two consecutive winless seasons, and helped turn us back into a playoff team. Ignoring all of his contributions and simply saying that the first trade netted us nothing but Logan Lejune (who I'm extremely excited about) is asinine. It's akin to saying the Broncos only got 'a few good years' out of Peyton Manning. What PDX did for Colorado extends far beyond results in the game or stats. But those intangible things can't be recorded in the sim, so it's understandable you'll miscalculate the value of that trade for our franchise.
"But no… they trade up two spots and take a now inactive Oskar Ludvig instead… what???" Yes, because we can see the future and knew he would go IA. You can't frame it as though he was inactive when we picked him. When Ludvig was drafted, he was a top prospect, and played a position of need for the Yeti, and had expressed interest in playing in Colorado. The decision to draft him was the correct one at the time. It's very easy to look back at draft picks in hindsight, armed with the knowledge of who is or isn't active, and question people's decisions. But at the time, the pick was one that made sense, and was agreed upon around the league.
Also, you do realise Deringer and Harp were off the board when we picked, right?
And while we're at it, take a look at what Ludvig achieved this past season as an IA compared with the superstar cornerback Andre Bly Jr. you got from us for exactly 1 season for the cost of a 2nd-round pick. I know who I'd rather of the two given the hindsight you love to use for your arguments.
Your Applehort comments are moot, because he was part of the leadership group that made the decisions you're panning. He did butt heads with the GMs at times, but as far as the trade you're referencing is concerned, he was on board. So, that's something else you can strike off your list.
Finally, the trades leading up to the S9 draft happened under a different GM pairing. Infinite wasn't even in the leadership group back then, let alone a GM. The decisions he and I are making for the future of this franchise are separate to those made prior to our tenure. But even with that said, I don't think the choices made by the past GMs were wrong given the context of the time. We were unfortunate to have guys go inactive, but we also got a lot out of that trade that meant more to us than the perception of 'winning or losing' the trade itself.
Good read though. It's interesting to look back at these events given the benefit of time. I'm happy with where the Yeti are right now - having just gone to our third consecutive playoffs and with a crop of amazing rookies, Logan Lejune include - and I wouldn't change any of it given the chance.
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - PSanchez55 - 12-05-2018
I gotta go to work...
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - infinitempg - 12-05-2018
I really do like this article (it's a great analysis of how Philly burned and then came back from the ashes) but I think there's a few things about Colorado that drop didn't get to as well.
(12-05-2018, 02:13 AM)YoungTB Wrote:Colorado could have completely rebuilt itself and then some had they not accepted this trade. They would have had their QB for the future, their RB of the future and present, a stud somewhat active CB (to be fair he was planning on leaving Colorado anyway), and a stud LB. Without this trade, maybe Applehort could have even stayed, and then we’re talking about a potential Ultimus roster.
I gotta be honest, I don't think it's right to consider these a one to one swap. Yes, with hindsight Colorado would have had some studs on its team, but at the time we already had our QB of the future (Applehort was still planning on staying and was part of the leadership group in S10 offseason) and our RB of the future (Grau was still somewhat active in S9 IIRC). Picking Falconi up probably would have sent Applehort out the door faster.
The Bly trade was because (a) we didn't want to have a player on our team who didn't want to be there, (b) we wanted to ship him off to a team we didn't think would contend (no offense, we didn't think you'd be that good last season and were much more scared of YKW), and © we wanted to get a stud in the prospect heavy S12 draft.
(12-05-2018, 02:13 AM)YoungTB Wrote:But no… they trade up two spots and take a now inactive Oskar Ludvig instead… what???
Like drop said, we were pretty excited about Ludvig. He disappeared basically immediately after we drafted him.
This is actually a huge bugaboo that we're still dealing with here (despite not being the GMs that had this problem) - draft picks tend to disappear after they head to Colorado. I'm not sure if it's altitude sickness or the legal weed, but we have a history. Through S6-S11, the only picks still with us and active are MVP Howard Miller and some bum named McCormick. (Devo Cansino is also here with us and he's quietly showing that he's a steal from the S10R3.) Everyone else except Applehort went IA within a season or two.
That's part of the reason for the rebrand though - we wanted to move past the old Yeti and even considered relocating, but in the end we love our fanbase so much that we couldn't leave them.
(12-05-2018, 02:13 AM)YoungTB Wrote:Either way, this trade is a disaster to look at, and had this not gone through, they could have been an Ultimus contending team right about now had Applehort stayed, which I can assume he would have with all of the talent that the team could have had. This trade is a huge L for Colorado, and an even bigger W for Philly.
I don't think I could reasonably say the Yeti were an Ultimus-contending team this year, but we were 30 seconds away from having home field advantage in the NSFC championship, and we had beaten the Hawks at home already last year. My testing actually gave us a 40% chance against them had we hosted, which is basically a toss up. If said bum from before doesn't throw two red-zone interceptions, we could be talking about Colorado getting shellacked by NOLA in the Ultimus rather than in the NSFC Championship. Not saying Philly lost the trade (they definitely won) but Colorado didn't lose as bad as you say.
We don't trade Bly, Kamaka, and Ramero away, and this team almost certainly contends for the Ultimus. But we also wouldn't have gotten 2 extra R2s this year - which turned into Logan Lejune and Rylant Wright, two picks we're extremely excited about. Considering we had traded away all our S11 picks, I think this was the right move to keep us away from another long tank drive and in the playoff hunt.
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - infinitempg - 12-05-2018
(12-05-2018, 08:00 AM)PSanchez55 Wrote:I gotta go to work...
:eyes:
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - iamslm22 - 12-05-2018
This is actually a great article.
As far as that trade we made with Philly, I do think it was a huge win for us. Not only was Vikain super important, but Rove was necessary too. We don't make that trade and we don't win the Ultimus. Simple as that.
NOLA's 2nd rounder got as part of the trade for you guys to bring in HEOB (I covered that trade in my article a month ago about two Philly trades I didn't like).
Overall though - really good analysis fun read. Shows that @kckolbe and @PDXBaller didn't screw the Liberty over with that Kamaka trade huh?
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - Beaver - 12-05-2018
(12-05-2018, 03:13 AM)YoungTB Wrote:Verdict: Yeah I’ll give this one to NOLA. They got Dimirio and didn’t give up too much for him, and he helped win them an Ultimus.2 btw
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - DeathOnReddit - 12-05-2018
(12-05-2018, 12:26 PM)Beaver Wrote:2 btw
you cheated for the second one though. so its like *
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - iamslm22 - 12-05-2018
(12-05-2018, 12:33 PM)DeathOnReddit Wrote:you cheated for the second one though. so its like *
Asipi talking about Asterisks. Wow
*A Breakdown Of The S8 Philly Teardown - PaytonM34 - 12-05-2018
(12-05-2018, 12:33 PM)DeathOnReddit Wrote:you cheated for the second one though. so its like *
The only thing we cheated was ourselves when we let Gavin go free without consequences, flonkerton should've killed that bastard