*Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2)

*Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - Printable Version

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*Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - Swanty - 10-09-2020

I love archetypes. Choosing your player’s archetype the moment that you sign up for the league is something really exciting, and something akin to role-playing games. You’re essentially at your first crossroads, and the path that you choose will define not only the type of player you start out as, but the type of player you’ll one day grow into. And having a choice of 3-5 builds is the perfect amount to choose from. Not too many that it’s overwhelming, but not too few that it doesn’t make a difference.

In part 1 of this article, I’ll take a look at the distribution of archetypes among positions and the relative differences between them, as well as identifying certain positions which I believe need a bit of an overhaul. In part 2, to be written at a later date, I’ll put forward some suggestions on new archetype sets that might work better.

What do I mean by work better? Well as the player base grows and testing improves, it has become apparent that some archetypes are just better than others in all situations, or at the very least, some archetypes are barely viable. I completely understand that as a game designer, it’s impossible to nail the archetype design from the very beginning. But as the game evolves and as strategies change across the league, I believe we need to be reviewing the archetypes on a fixed basis, perhaps once every real life year.

Even if we knew the exact mechanics of the sim and can definitively say that all archetypes are equally strong, there will no doubt still be consensus favourites that emerge. And even in this case, I believe it’s in our interests to keep the distribution balanced. Having a sense of choice over your player’s development path is one of the best things about this game!

When I signed up for the league, I created as a Pass Blocker OL. As I quickly found out, this is not a well utilised archetype (there’s now only one active Pass Blocker OL in the entire league). I believe that we should be aiming to make every listed single archetype viable and balanced through tweaking of starting attribute values, measurables and attribute caps so that the answer to the question ‘which archetypes are better than others?’ is always ‘it depends’.

A shout out and thanks to Tesla whose awesome PT entry here inspired me to dive into the actual usages of archetypes across the league.

Without further ado, let’s dive into each position group and have a look at how each archetype is being used around the league. For the purposes of this article, I’m looking only at players with 58+ TPE:

Quarterback

Pocket Passer – 7
Game Manager – 7
Mobile – 6
Gunslinger – 4

Kudos to the designers for the QB archetype choice; this one is really nicely distributed. You could argue that Gunslinger could do with some buffing but with such low numbers overall, it’s hard to make a case for it. All in all, this sort of distribution is exactly what we want to see: no clear leader and decent usage across the board.

[Image: rXSbAiP.png]

Running Back

Speed Back – 35 (61%)
Power Back – 8
All-purpose Back – 7
Receiving Back – 5
Blocking Back – 2

Here’s an example of where something needs to be done. Even with a choice of five, speed back is chosen by well over half of all players. And no wonder, Speed is the king of the sim. But if the first decision people are making is ‘I want to be the fastest’, we should make at least 3 of the archetypes have 100 speed, allowing users to choose a path based on the secondary attributes instead. At the moment, I don’t think Receiving and All-Purpose are different enough to justify losing out on that top speed.

[Image: oLTRrjB.png]

Wide Receiver

Speed Receiver – 37 (49%)
Route Runner – 23
Red Zone Thread – 10
Possession Receiver – 6

This one is another victim of the ‘speed is king’ school of thought. If you look just at ISFL players, 60% of all WRs are Speed Receivers. All in all, the four archetypes here are really quite similar, but there’s still 10 speed points difference between a Speed Receiver and the two least selected archetypes, making those much more difficult to make work in the ISFL. Again, bringing those up to 95 or even 100 and rebalancing the other attributes would go a long way to helping bring more variety to the game.

[Image: yIE4PG2.png]

Tight End

Balanced – 17 (46%)
Vertical – 10
Possession – 6
Blocking – 4

Tight end is the first skill position we’ve seen where the fastest is not the most selected archetype. Interestingly, it’s Balanced that is the preferred option around the league. Perhaps this is because the payoff by lowering speed from 90 to 85 is the benefit of being viable as a blocker. In any case, this one has a decent level of variety, but we could probably do more to make Possession and Blocking more viable.

[Image: e2OlUTl.png]

Offensive Line

Athletic Lineman – 23 (62%)
Technician – 7
Run Blocker – 6
Pass Blocker - 1

This is a prime candidate for a redesign with the vast majority of players picking the same option. The massive boost to both Agility and Speed, coupled with 100 Strength, is apparently preferable to the drop in Run/Pass blocking. This is even more damning when you look at ISFL players. Of the 21 active OL in the big leagues, only 2 aren’t running with Athletic Lineman.

[Image: 7CjjSK9.png]

Defensive Tackle

Interior Rusher – 25 (58%)
Run Stuffer – 8
Nose Tackle – 6
Balanced - 4

Here’s another position where the one clear leader in speed dominates the archetype choices. Again, we could probably fix this by having a number of options with the highest viable speed. Balanced is a bit of an odd one here, with the caps being identical to Run Stuffer (with Hands being 5 less) and the starting values very similar.

[Image: 5IASStc.png]

Defensive End

Balanced – 25 (55%)
Power Rusher – 15
Speed Rusher – 9
Run Stopper – 0

This is an interesting one. Here we have two archetypes with the max speed, Balanced and Speed. Despite being inferior at both Strength and Tackling, both important attributes for a D lineman, Balanced is clearly the favourite here. Not a whole lot of difference between them all in terms of attribute caps but 55% is a huge number. And again we have two almost identical archetypes, with Run Stopper looking worse in almost every way to Power Rusher, likely why we don’t have a single active one in the league.

[Image: g5ZlEbU.png]

Linebacker

Speed Rusher – 31 (48%)
Balanced – 22
Coverage Linebacker – 9
Power Rusher – 2
Run Stopper – 1

Back to the speed meta, and despite having 5 to choose from, almost half the league has opted for the fastest archetype. Despite having high Strength/Tackling, only 3 users have opted for Power Rusher/Run Stopper.

[Image: ZjrQBlq.png]

Cornerback

Man to Man – 30 (48%)
All-Around – 19
Zone – 14

Cornerback is probably one of the best optimised archetype selections out there. While Man to Man is the clear favourite, the other two are clearly viable in the league. Zone and All-Around are very similar, so the choice is essentially between speed or supporting attributes. When you look at it like that, it’s a very healthy 50/50 split. However, it is the only position (other than K/P) that only has 3 archetypes to choose from. It would be nice to have a variant of Man to Man with 100 speed to split that one into two.

[Image: 13ILP3k.png]

Safety

Center Fielder – 28 (42%)
All-Around – 16
Playmaker – 16
Run Support – 6

Another nicely balanced group here with the exception of Run Support, which only has 90 speed. It seems the consensus is that this is too low to be viable, with only two safeties in the ISFL using that archetype. Those opting for 95 speed builds have a good choice between two roughly equal options.

[Image: ybPySKM.png]

Kicker

Accurate – 15 (58%)
Power – 8
Balanced - 7

We all know that K/Ps are people too, and it seems like these people prefer accuracy over raw power. There’s only really two attributes that matter for them, so likely not much that needs to be done in terms of archetype tweaks.

[Image: 8nsYqfz.png]

Conclusion

Whoever designed these archetypes has done a truly excellent job. The majority of positions have stood the test of time with at least 2 or 3 viable options that can be chosen by a brand new rookie. However, there are a small minority of position groups that I believe could do with an archetype refresh in order to try and introduce some variety to the players at their positions. Enabling users to be creative about their builds is something we should encourage.

This will obviously require a ton of research, testing and enough notice to all players to make sure nothing is sprung upon them. But like all games, when the metagame and favourites keep evolving, we need to be reactive to those changes.

Look out for Part 2 where I’ll pick out a few positions and look at what could be adjusted!

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - retrospace111 - 10-09-2020

game manager seems a bit too OP compared to pocket passer.

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - negs - 10-09-2020

Gunslinger buff when?

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - Cheech65 - 10-09-2020

Yeah, definitely took Balanced TE for the extra blocking, not because I didn't know speed was broken...

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - Pat - 10-09-2020

I've been meaning to write something up like this for a while. The only problem is that with the way the sim works, there will always be clear cut better archetypes.

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - ZootTX - 10-09-2020

This is a cool thread, covering a topic that I've not seen talked about a ton, and with engaging graphics. I like it.

(10-09-2020, 01:50 PM)Cheech65 Wrote: Yeah, definitely took Balanced TE for the extra blocking, not because I didn't know speed was broken...

This lol.

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - moonlight - 10-09-2020

(10-09-2020, 01:18 PM)retrospace111 Wrote: game manager seems a bit too OP compared to pocket passer.

It wasn’t like that when I created. It was all pocket passers and a couple gunslingers. I chose game manager just to be different.

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - timeconsumer - 10-09-2020

Hi, guy who built the current archetypes here. There's some good info here and I agree that a rework is never a bad idea and we could go with some tweaking. Here are my thoughts based on the overhaul I did way back when:

1) I regret keeping the same archetypes the league started with. I took what we had and I tweaked it. Problem is this resulted in us having some that are very redundant, like the balanced DT you noted. If I were to do it all again I'd have most positions end up with something like "Speed, power, balanced" as the three choices or "Speed, blocking, balanced" or "speed, possession, balanced" etc and remove a lot of the archetypes that we don't need. 3 is pretty decent for most positions.

2) Speed. Yes we all know how important speed is but we also need to keep in mind it isnt the end all be all even though everyone chooses it to be. Now that our friends are decompiling the sim we can see that even better and we have a better understanding of how CurrentSpeed really works, especially for offense. A 100 speed WR is 6.4% faster than a 90 speed WR when they have the ball. That's it. That's what 150 TPE buys you. With the higher strength, agility, and hands afforded by these slower archetypes I think it's a perfectly acceptable tradeoff. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

3) Strength. With our new understanding of how blocking works and we realize that strength isn't everything for blocking or getting off blocks. Lineman may all be Athletic but believe me the blocking stats are just as important and we've seen that quantified, so is agility. Even Hands is just as important as strength in the raw calculation and considering the low TPE cost it should be capped early. We've seen that if a DL wants to avoid being blocked Tackling actually appears to be twice as effective as strength and while I didn't have the formulas to back this up at the time I had noticed it during my late career time on Angus Winchester as a Dlineman and ran with a high tackling stat late into regression. On the flipside we've seen how important strength is for receivers and corners. Red Zone receivers may not be common because of 90 speed but that 75 strength is nice. Maybe they could use a buff to 80 strength.

4) Gunslinger. I was a gunslinger, I loved it. If you love efficiency gunslinger isn't for you. You will throw more INTs. That's bad right? Not really. From all my tests and analysis I don't really see more ints give any sort of quantifiable increase to loss rate. Know what statistic was the only one I could find with a significant affect? Sacks.

5) Experience. Experience matters in the sim as we've seen. I have a few positions with fixed values like receivers and TEs and some that scale with TPE like corners and safeties. Maybe I did this wrong. Maybe corners should scale with time played like everyone else. Maybe receivers had their experience too high and it devalued hands too much. It's worth exploring.

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - Jimi64 - 10-09-2020

Blocking back? who plays running back just to block

RE: Let’s talk about Archetypes! (Part 1 of 2) - The_Kidd - 10-09-2020

This is a topic that has been on my mind since I first joined, I've repeatedly talked about it myself in my own space and occasionally looked for others who have the same itch to tweak.

Like TC noted, the biggest issue is redundancy and not fully understanding the full scope of how the sim prioritizes attributes pending the position selected. My theory, at least for a soft reset, is to create a clear strength and clear weakness for certain attributes to "balance" the archetype. But for others where the gaps are already close enough, perhaps changing the physical restrictions would help.

For QB, I felt that Gunslinger could be tweaked. My theory is that a true gunslinger has the strongest arm but lacks composure and decision-making. Ergo, a gunslinger would have a near maxed arm(100 THR, 95 ACC) which is going to make them OP in the sim. To balance that out, Gunslinger should not have an INT rating over 85 and for sake of the sim, their endurance should be lowered to further increase the inconsistency and lead to the trademark high int counts Gunslingers are known for.

Speaking of inconsistency, I think Game Mangers need that defining trademark. Capping the current high mark attributes at 90 would, should, in my hypothesis, further increase inconsistency for our 79 speed burners

For Running backs and Wide Receivers, we need a mix of "dumb jock" and "lightweight speed demons" stereotypes tossed in. There's nothing wrong with speed WR and RB being 100 speed. They need to suffer in other areas such as intelligence, strength, and their physical weight. Whereas the other RB archetypes could use boosts to strength and weight. Receiving Backs should be just as fast and have near max hands, but they should be generally shorter. Speed WR's should be real light and have lower hands ratings whereas the other receivers should be built bigger with higher hands or higher intelligence or higher agility depending on the archetype

Tight Ends need to be more physical. More agility, more height, more hands, more strength. They should have lower endurance and speed on average across the board. Yes, some tight ends dont block, but those tight ends usually have the same athletic features as a WR(Shannon Sharpe, Jimmy Graham)

I think something overlooked about o-linemen is that they generally are the smartest position group in the NFL. O-Line should have the highest intelligence caps across the board. I think if we buffed the weight on guards, there wouldnt be this current trend where low-average TPE human guards perform worse than bot guards. Tackles should have the highest height cap, since most elite OT's stand between 6'6-6'8 these days. But as discussed before, o-line isnt sexy and the best way to incentivize people to use them is by raising their attribute floor and lowering the costs of their TPE builds

D-line is simple to me: either be tall and fat, fat and strong, tall skinny and fast, short skinny and agile. Weight and height buffs for the big boys in the trenches

For LB's, If speed is 100, there needs to be lower cap on other impactful attributes. For archetypes not trademarked by speed, raise strength, tackling, agility for the physical players and hands, intelligence, tackling for the smart players ---- this rule can also be applied to safeties, you'd just have to lower speed caps to prevent another OP archetype.

For Safeties and Corners - I think we could do away with the all-around archetype(ironic since that's mine) and add a physical presser and ball hawk archetype
Physical Presser would have advantages in weight, strength, agility, tackling and be weaker in hands
Ball Hawk would have advantages in hands, agility and weak in weight, tackling, strength(intelligence would have to be lowered some as well to create a boom-or-bust playstyle)

I'm sure this has been discussed before, tried before, and whatnot....but I just love to spitball on this topic and see what has been thought of to bring more even distribution to the other archetypes

TL;DR --- 100 speed players should predominantly be the lightest players, the weakest players, and have the lowest intelligence to nerf sim dominance and allow other archetypes a chance to play a role in the league