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+--- Thread: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal (/showthread.php?tid=31216)
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - r0tzbua - 04-01-2021
gucci Wrote:The question was not whether or not she should be punished, but the severity of said punishment.
We agree here.
gucci Wrote:Claims that Steg was involved in some conspiracy to destroy Kya are unfounded, not only did he not bring this issue to HO, but when it was all but forgotten after the Zamir snaffu, I (a lowly intern) was the one who pointed out that there was still 300+ fraudulent TPE circulating in the league. Thus resurrecting the conversation. [...] But dragging Steg and/or excelsior into this conspiracy is completely uncalled for to the point where I felt compelled to comment.
I wouldn't go as far as calling it conspiracy theories and I don't have seen a lot of people (nor me, I never said that anywhere here) claiming that he is the reason that this has happened … BUT if he took part in this investigation or the vote (and that’s an if and if he hasn’t taken part in either then there is no problem with the investigation/vote and the only thing that’s left is that I have a problem with the severity, how it was conducted and the transparency at the time of posting) that is a problem because when I was part of Head Office it was pretty clear cut that if you have an undeniable bias you should abstain from at least the vote. (No, that's not a rule, but what is these days)
gucci Wrote:Do I think HO landed on the right punishment? Probably not, but that’s generally what appeals are for, we’ve seen them reduce a number of punishments to more reasonable terms over the years.
Head Office AGAIN and AGAIN making overreactionary punishments and brushing it off to Appeals is a broken system.
gucci Wrote:I also think the original post for this failed to stress the correct reasons for the punishment that were basically Kya knowingly using her power to award TPE to give herself TPE she knew she hadn’t earned.
Are you basically saying there is no doubt that it was malicious intent and abuse of power because she gave herself 1.5 TPE and me 3 TPE 3 or something seasons ago?
gucci Wrote:but as someone who has seen the evidence, didn’t have a vote (like excelsior),
Maybe parts of HO (even interns) shouldn't post things like he did then basically calling a user lazy and saying that we all can't read for shit.
gucci Wrote:What I can say is how mature Kya has been about accepting responsibility and it only reinforces my opinion that a probationary period may have been the correct course of action.
We can agree here.
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - qWest - 04-01-2021
(04-01-2021, 02:05 AM)DarknessRising Wrote:I had never understood the comments and perception of HO being cold and robotic until I read this. Especially rich for the "rules are rules no matter what" coming out of Head Office, which has flagrantly invented rules and punishments in the past counter to what is in the rulebook.(04-01-2021, 01:35 AM)TheRealMazatt Wrote: Why does the league not separate this into claims being denied/accepted that are actually meaningful? It would definitely be worth the time it takes to see how many predictions were accepted before/after the sim started to be considered "late." That's the level of care and nuance that should go into determining the severity of the punishment. Even a cursory glance at the sheet shows that every 'illegal' claim is being treated the same way which is a massive, massive misstep on behalf of HO. Being able to see the processed claims that could arguably have an advantage gained would go a long way in coming to a decision that doesn't alienate your user base.
Sims start at 6:00PM for me, Whatamus, Lime, and Exilizer having their claims processed before that 6:00PM start time but after 5:45 is technically illegal, but treating those as somehow unfair or unjust to the league is completely blind to the role HO's should play in regards to supporting league health. For example, 3lewsers submitted 1 point task late in S20. They posted it 7 minutes before the sim even started. It is impossible to argue that there is advantage gained by what they did, but they are still going to lose TPE. That is mindless. Same thing goes for Point Tasks themselves, why should it be listed that Daybe loses 3 TPE because they posted their PT 3 minutes late?
Having leniency on allowing users to claim TPE that is unimpacted by arbitrary times is a good thing for the league. This retributive form of punishment serves no one any good. No users are happy they lose TPE, no one is happy to see others do the work and not get rewarded because of three minutes, it's all just pointless. Genuinely, no one is better off now that these moves have been made. The league should only be removing TPE if they have definitive proof the delay in posting allowed them to view sims and gain TPE they othewise wouldn't have. Otherwise it is punishing users and their players because HO has a different standard of success relative to the people actually doing the jobs.
So for me this is pretty simple to address and goes back to something I said either on this post or the other one. "A deadline is a deadline".
If you start saying "Deadliine is at X time" but then accept entries made up to 15 minutes after, then what is the point of that being the deadline or having that deadline exist? Or if you are going to accept up to 15 minutes after the deadline, you can make the argument that 16 minutes (1 minute into stream) doesn't do anything cause it has the count down timer, same as 17 minutes. Games take around 10 minutes to complete and you certainly can't tell who wins in the first quarter majority of the time, so does that mean the window could be extended to 20?
This all leads to a giant slipper slope of inconsistency and is ripe for issues being created. The best way to stop is to enforce a deadline, which is what has happened here. There is argument and support for moving the deadline to the start of sim time instead of having it 15 minutes before hand and there is merits to that, but ultimately, I say again, "a deadline is a deadline". Im sure there was people that saw they were late by a couple minutes and therefore didn't post anything cause they knew that they wouldn't, or rather shouldn't, get the TPE.
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - DarknessRising - 04-01-2021
(04-01-2021, 04:09 AM)qWest Wrote: I had never understood the comments and perception of HO being cold and robotic until I read this. Especially rich for the "rules are rules no matter what" coming out of Head Office, which has flagrantly invented rules and punishments in the past counter to what is in the rulebook.I pose to you then how you would handle it or suggest anything constructive rather than scathe HO more.
As for robotic, im on here explaining what i can, and this issue and black and white, if you are late then you are late. If you want to open up and make it grey, then you are only gonna get more problems so i really dont see that side of it.
Also new into HO so don't put past acts on me. Me and Swanty are both new, meaning 40% of HO has changed. This can change and will change with this new blood. What would also help move change along is constructive suggestions or feedback on what people think should have occurred or happened so I implore you to tell me how you would handle the deadline for these tasks
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - Memento Mori - 04-01-2021
On the enforcement of deadlines: We know that since at least Season 16, there has been leniency shown by all PPT Heads regarding deadlines. I doubt that in Season 16 the PPT invented the concept of leniency. It's more likely that this has happened to varying extents since Season 1. Every PPT head is likely guilty of this offence. Kya was clearly too lenient, or she/her team didn't check deadlines very rigorously (seen with people receiving credit for predictions posted after the sim had finished). A fine and probationary period makes sense for this. Why HO jumped straight to firing her and skipped the other logical steps in the disciplinary process is unexplained.
Why was Kya, and every other PPT head lenient? Look at the spreadsheet and list of players who lost TPE for an indication why. One of my players lost TPE because he submitted his predictions at 7:46pm ET. I don't want to tell him he has to deduct TPE because he submitted his predictions one minute late. Not one minute after the stream started, or one minute after the first game started, but 14 minutes before the stream start time rather than 15 minutes. This kind of rigorousness and desire to stick to deadlines doesn't seem human, understanding or fun. If I was a PPT grader or the PPT head, I'd find it really difficult to strictly adhere to a policy that these submissions deserve no credit. It's how I'd act if I wanted to get one over someone I secretly hated or if I worked for the tax office, not how I'd act if I was in a volunteer position in a league that is supposed to be a fun distraction for everyone involved. Decisions like this don't make the league better unless you care more about strict deadlines than you do about enjoyment. This is why this decision is unpopular.
On appeals: you can't rely on appeals to fix your mistakes. I've read this in a number of punishment threads and I really hate this argument. The aim should be to get it right the first time, not to try to get it right and rely on appeals to step in if you don't. This argument looks cold and robotic too. Even when your punishment is appealed successfully, being punished, especially when it becomes a big public spectacle like this, is an upsetting experience.
With regards to this specific instance: why on earth would Kya want to go back to being PPT head after this? If I was PPT head, even if I wanted to be head for another 10 seasons, I wouldn't appeal this. As soon as HO voted to remove her, it became practically irreversible.
It's clear that ever since Darkness became an intern he's been trying really hard to improve HO's communication and image. I appreciate it and many others in here and in management chat have said they do too. It's not enough, and won't be enough, if HO continues to act so out-of-touch. It's putting lipstick on a pig.
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - qWest - 04-01-2021
(04-01-2021, 04:24 AM)DarknessRising Wrote:It doesn't seem to be worth it to pose the same suggestions as others when that's just being dismissed as something you "really don't see." It's clear that HO is taking the stance that there can never be any grey area and that's why you come off as incredibly cold and out of touch here. If everything has to be black and white and department heads and Head Office can't apply some humanity and discretion then we clearly need to find other people that can do "see that side."(04-01-2021, 04:09 AM)qWest Wrote: I had never understood the comments and perception of HO being cold and robotic until I read this. Especially rich for the "rules are rules no matter what" coming out of Head Office, which has flagrantly invented rules and punishments in the past counter to what is in the rulebook.I pose to you then how you would handle it or suggest anything constructive rather than scathe HO more.
As for robotic, im on here explaining what i can, and this issue and black and white, if you are late then you are late. If you want to open up and make it grey, then you are only gonna get more problems so i really dont see that side of it.
Also new into HO so don't put past acts on me. Me and Swanty are both new, meaning 40% of HO has changed. This can change and will change with this new blood. What would also help move change along is constructive suggestions or feedback on what people think should have occurred or happened so I implore you to tell me how you would handle the deadline for these tasks
I don't want to make it seem like you're personally responsible for past actions of HO but, as we've seen with this case, existing precedent and processes from previous people in places of power can clearly affect how those currently in power make their decisions. So if we're going to fire one person for that maybe we need to clear everyone else out too.
If you want to take constructive criticism and make changes for the health of the league, plenty of people have already stated it (Mori, r0tz, etc.). 1) Stop relying on appeals to fix BS punishments. 2) Let Department Heads head their departments without HO micromanaging them. 3) If there is an issue needing thorough investigation like this, be transparent with the department head and talk with them about it and how it can be fixed. PPT could teach HO a couple of things about how leniency benefits the league. 4) If HO is going to walk out with a strong punishment they need to come with the receipts at the beginning. 5) Even if votes aren't published, abstentions should be noted just like appeals does.
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - Opera_Phantom - 04-01-2021
Hey everyone, it's me, one of the infamous PPT involved!
First of all, let me start by saying that the fact that HO spent i don't know how many hours looking into this and decided to remove the "faulty" TPE is the only way to address this point. There were deadlines that were not met, so TPE gained in those situations should be removed and that's exactly what's gonna happen. If it's 1 TPE or 15 TPE, does not matter. And of the reasoning by some here is that "it's only a couple TPE", it shouldn't matter that you have to take it out, as "it's only a couple TPE". The line has to be somewhere, or you'll end up one week rejecting someone who posted a task 5 min later than the deadline and next week you accept someone else's who posted 7 min later. There has to be consistency here, and the best way is to adhere to the set deadlines on every original post. Like it or not, the tasks are normally posted with a lot of time in advance, so no need to post stuff close to the deadline.
Going into the other parts of the subject, i'd like to say that i don't believe for a second that @Kyamprac "gave" TPE to herself and r0tz in a malicious way, or that she has favorites and decided to help her team, whatever. The way we grade stuff is pretty fluid, meaning that while we do have tasks assigned, if for example i'm not online and someone else is, he/she can pick up that slack and grade/post stuff anytime to make it faster. So, if Kya was really trying to do shady stuff, she would probably ask to do some tasks way more, or would do them without asking anyone to gain an advantage, as we normally don't check each others work because we all trust the judgement of every PPT member. Hell, i show up a lot on the sheet @iStegosauruz posted (and thanks for that) and while i did not comb through it all to check for sure, i probably gave late TPE to Arizona players and/or members i am closer in the league. And i had no intention to play favorites or help anyone specifically. The reason i probably didn't grade my own late work is because i try to do tasks asap, so i do them earlier on the week or as soon as they are posted. So, in conclusion, Kya was "caught" doing something we all did, the difference is that we're not heads, only regular members. It's true that the Head job holder should look into stuff more closely, but when you trust your team, you don't micro manage that much.
Now looking into the punishment, i had the opportunity to tell HO that even though i didn't have all the info on why they were removing Kya, it wasn't the right course of action. And now that i have a bit more info on it, i can double down on that feeling. Steg mentioned that there was stuff happening since S16, way before Kya was even a PPT member, i think only Stennett remains on the team from that time, so if you're going to can Kya, please use just the time when she was there as Head. And looking into the type of user Kya is, i don't think it's warranted that she gets fired as a scapegoat for errors that were not only happening before she was even on the team, but also errors that the whole team let through, myself included.
We even have regular discussions on discord about certain tasks that may or may not be rejected, be we normally go for the easy approach and "give" TPE instead of taking it to bring up the user morale and help with retention. Right or wrong approach? Who knows.
So the fact that HO decided to remove her from the job, in what seems an unanimous decision, it's strange. We have seen a lot of members, even HO members, get involved in some shady stuff and they had, i think, less severe punishments. Why not make it a probation period, not only for Kya, but for all of us? I mean, we all messed up and when we did, it definitely wasn't Kya's fault. Even a fine i think would be harsh, why should she lose money because of our errors when some of those happened even before she was on the team?
Probation period for every member and a closer look on the deadlines to not allow late TPE. And the matter would be closed for sure, as we would pay a lot more attention to it to not mess up again. But for some reason they decide to go "crazy" and axe someone who is a valuable member of the league from a job she was good at, angering the mob.
Taking what i said before, that PPT members had errors, i decided to step down from the team effective immediately. No, this is not a gesture to support Kya, as she already knows i'm on her side, this is not a gesture to stick it to HO, as they know what i think about all this and i agree with some of their reasonings, this is simply a gesture i'm taking because i have made a lot of errors during this time, as we can see on the sheet, and i should've done better. As simple as that. I had no idea how many times it happened and i think it's a good thing that HO analysed this. Besides, it will open up a spot for someone new to get a league job which i try to encourage every single time.
Despite all this i'm proud on what i helped the PPT achieve.
I want this graded for media please, get me my money.
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - tMuse - 04-01-2021
As an auditor and updater i just wanna chime in on the whole deadline shit.
I don't give a single flying fuck if a user posted in the AC thread late. He posted in the thread and thats it for me. Some Updaters handle that differently but we don't have a strict deadline for that. It's also with leeway.
I handle it that way: AC was open and user posted in it? He completed the task. Fine me all you want for that but get that fucking head out of your ass and stop sticking to the deadlines as if it is a crime to post something a bit later.
Sim hasn't started when the predictions got posted? Who the fuck cares. Let him in.
A user posted his PT some hours late? Who cares he still wrote something/designed a graphic for the task.
Jesus christ this shit should be a fun experience and not a fucking job.
Just close the thread for PTs when the deadline is over and you're good to go. But when the thread and with that the task, is still open and an user takes his time to complete the task it should be granted.
/rant
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - Frostbite - 04-01-2021
How are you all writing these paragraphs at 7am wtf
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - qWest - 04-01-2021
(04-01-2021, 05:56 AM)Frostbite Wrote: How are you all writing these paragraphs at 7am wtfGMT best T. It's noon lads let's start a revolution
RE: Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal - Swanty - 04-01-2021
Hi all, as one of the voting members of HO, I wanted to share my line of thinking.
First of all, it was a very close vote. I'm sure like me, others found it extremely difficult to decide on which side to land on here. Ultimately I did vote for a change in leadership. The first thing I want to say is that there was no attempt to unduly sway voters made by anyone, least of all Steg.
I think it's important with these votes to separate the facts of the issue and the user that would be on the receiving end of the punishment. In this instance, I found that really difficult to do, having had nothing but fantastic interactions with Kya in the past.
For me, the continued acceptance of late tasks wasn't something I considered strong enough for removal. As has been pointed out by many people, this isn't a new issue that has happened under Kya's watch, even though the rate of accepted late submissions did increase across the team. If it had been just that and HO only got around to looking into it now, I believe a warning would have sufficed along with a nudge for the team to enforce the deadlines more reliably.
Instead, there were two main incidents that led to me voting for a change in leadership rather than a suspension.
1) Submitting predictions 53 minutes after the deadline, then grading that task and awarding TPE. Awarding themselves invalid TPE isn't something any other grader has ever done (at least since S16 when the data was pulled from)
2) Grading S25 PT5 (first one graded since S24 PT2 with no others graded since), awarding invalid TPE to the lone late submission, r0tz, a fellow Dallas WR member
Any attempt to conclude whether these two incidents were deliberate or not would be pure speculation and counter-productive, especially when the individual has stated they were not. But at best, it's a bad look. These were probably the two worst looking individual incidents on paper across all graders over the the last 11 seasons, so the fact that both involved the current head of the department was where I saw an issue.
I know that most people will read the above and still conclude that a warning would have been more appropriate, but I can only speak for my own interpretation of the standards that I believe department heads should be held to.
I definitely think there are things that we as HO could have done a lot better in arriving at this decision. I'll be pushing for us to have an internal 'debrief' so that we can reflect and learn on what was not handled well. Off the top of my head, here are some things that I know we should have done better:
1) Gone into more detail in the punishment thread. Data and more context might have helped provide clarity from the start
2) Spoken to Kya a lot earlier on in the process
3) Been more measured with our replies so as to not exacerbate what is a very emotional situation for all involved
And please, if you have some feedback about what we could have done better and that we can incorporate into future decision making, please do drop me a DM. I and others genuinely want to help make HO and the league better, and I know that we need to do better to earn back your trust.