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+---- Thread: *The All Time Draft (Rounds 3 and 4) (/showthread.php?tid=46636)
*The All Time Draft (Rounds 3 and 4) - ztarwarz - 07-29-2023
Pick 3.21: Negs takes another record holder, Rich Triplet, CB
"Leader in all time PDs"
Rich is a bit of a compiler, playing 12 seasons, only garnering a pair of 1st team all pros and a 2nd team all pro, and 6 pro bowls. He also only got a single Positional Excellency award. That being said, nobody was better at breaking up passes than Rich. He leads that stat by 26. He also has 50 more tackles than anyone else at CB, and while he's lower on the INT chart (T-15th) and fumble charts (T-6th in FF, T-3rd in FR), this is still someone who, at his peak, was able to get more PDs in a single season than anyone else in league history. While I'm not sure he'd be my 2nd CB off the board, as he was in this draft, he's at bare minimum top 5, and there's no person who definitely goes above him not named Dermot Lavelle.
Pick 3.22: Mobi lets a little recency bias into the equation again, Jackson Kingston, WR
"3rd in all time receptions, 2nd in yards, just outside top 10 for TDs"
Similar to Mobi's first round pick, this is one where caring about new sim players could have led him much, much further astray than Kingston, a Hall of Famer with 6 pro bowls. That being said, his only positional excellency award was for returner, he only ever got one 2nd team spot as the 4th best WR in a year for the All Pro teams, and all in all, he's a Hall of Famer who's more there for his pure production that can be seen above. There are two major problems I have with that production; first, it comes in over 200 games played, making his 2000 yard lead on players from the same era like Taro Raimon and Tugg Speedman much less impressive when Raimon did it in 160 games and Speedman did it in 176, and I really don't find 89 touchdowns that impressive a number over 206 games. As such I don't think Kingston is even the 3rd best WR from his generation, I'd have Speedman and maybe Raimon above him as well, and all this is missing the obvious candidate. Trey Willie is clearly the best WR still on the board at this point in time. Still with the most TDs in league history, and only 400 yards behind Kingston in 28 less games, and even a better award cabinet, this is a pick that I actually think is a bigger mistake quality-wise than Knight over Boss and Armstrong; at least Knight is one of the best QBs of all time. Kingston just is not one of the best WRs by any measure.
Pick 3.23: Simo's plan B is still amazing, BamBam McMullet, LB
"I wanted Triplet, but I thought Roth was less likely to come back to me."
"I was tossing up between (pick 3.24) and BamBam for a bit"
Apparently Simo's plan would have had him pick a 3rd straight Outlaw. But McMullet isn't exactly a bad pick; he's 3rd in sacks, and top 10 in both tackles and TFLs. He made 5 pro bowls and had a pair of 1st and 2nd team All Pros. He didn't win any positional excellency awards, but the early 30s period was a stacked time for LBs anyways. I might actually have him over the already picked Bender Rodriguez in terms of a list of best LBs, even. Either way, for the first of a minimum of 3 LBs that you'd need for your team, BamBam would hold the fort down for a long time.
Pick 3.24: Frost capitalizes on Mobi's mistake again, Trey Willie, WR
"Still having TD record in an era with less games is wild"
"Surprised tbh Kingston went above Willie"
Early in the draft, Frost was the biggest beneficiary of Mobiaus' continued recency bias fueled picks. First getting the greatest QB of the old sim by quite a ways in Boss, and then by getting the 2nd best WR of the old sim in Trey Willie. 2 WRotY awards, a 9 time pro bowler over 13 seasons, and while he played more games than most of the rest of the top 10 by TDs, he got them at a great rate regardless, 118 TDs over 180 games. He also is 4th in receiving yards, the highest of anyone from the old sim, and even then he easily gets over Kingston in that category with only 400 less yards in 28 less games. At this point, I feel like Frost's team is the best so far with Boss, Willie, and Dan Miller on defense. That being said, we're jumping the gun by a ton there considering we're less than 1/8th through the draft at this point in time.
Pick 3.25: Modern Duke goes for the 2nd HOF who wasn't unanimous after Westfield, Marquise Brown, RB
"Less happy with it than my first 2 picks but my wr plans got scrapped"
"wanted a skill position player. run of top QBs was over and felt early for the quality of WRs available"
"marquise 'volume' brown"
"Remember he was able to achieve all that despite being YoungTB"
Trash talk and jokes aside, Marquise Brown is arguably the greatest old sim RB. A good portion of that is due to how much he was force fed over his 9 seasons in the league, but over 123 games, he got the 4th most yards and the 8th most touchdowns on the 5th most attempts. He did this at an actually really efficient for the old sim 4.34 ypc, brought it up to a 4.77 ypc in the playoffs, and won 4 positional excellency awards in a row between S12 and S15. Duke's first 3 picks average over 10 pro bowls, which I'm pretty sure is the highest among anyone else in the draft.
Just to be frank, though, if this was real life Brown should have sued his head coach for running him into the dust. Brown got barely under 2900 (2897 to be precise) attempts in 123 games. He averaged over 23.5 carries per game. The season where he got the most carries is still 2nd all time, and was only beaten out by 5 attempts, once, in a season with 2 more games. His average season in terms of carries per game would make for the 19th most in league history if he was in a 16 game season. In summation, what the absolute hell.
3.26: Infinite picks the best sacking LB of the old sim, Angus Winchester, LB
"not even as an OL SMH. Common Infi L"
Winchester has a major shortcoming: He started as an OL for 3 seasons and played his final 2 seasons at DE, and thus only played 7 seasons at LB with 14 game seasons, giving him 98 games of total LB production. During those 7 seasons, he made the Pro Bowl 5 times, got the LBotY award for S7, got 94 sacks, and had a single season with the 3rd most sacks by any player ever. He averaged 0.96 sacks per game. That's basically the entirety of his contributions; he had 10 TFLs for his LB career, had 657 tackles, had 68 PDs (to be fair, this is actually a good mark, unlike the TFL numbers), 2 picks, and 9 fumbles forced, none of which are anything more than good and sometimes are bad over 98 games. But his sack numbers have him 19th, and the closest guy above him in terms of games played still had 32 more games to get those sacks.
3.27: Rusfan continues the LB picks, Juan Domine, LB
No comments from Rusfan or anyone else in the server on Domine, who played at LB for 9 straight seasons all on Chicago, only got 4 pro bowls, but did manage two 1st team All Pros and a 2nd team, as well as an LBotY and a DPOY in S31. While not excelling in a single area to the level of Angus Winchester, Domine was much more well rounded; for LBs, he was 37th in tackles, 8th in sacks, 31st in TFLs, T-2nd in INTs, 17th in PDs, T-11th in FFs, and T-9th in FRs. The INT numbers are pretty impressive, though bear in mind that it's only 16 total to get to T-2nd at the LB position. With a couple more seasons he definitely could have been higher up all time, and either way managed to waltz into the Hall anyways.
3.28: Zayn (via Jeffie) picks another guy skirting regulations, Verso L'Alto, TE
Verso had an incredibly long career which stood out in a number of ways. He got 4 TEotY awards and 10 Pro Bowls over 13 seasons, has the most postseason receptions and the 7th most yards, has the 8th most receptions counting WRs, and grades out among TEs as 3rd in yards, 3rd in touchdowns, 20th in yards per reception, 2nd in receptions, and T-4th in pancakes. That pancakes stat in particular is really amazing considering just how much easier it is to get pancakes in the new sim. DiMirio is 2nd most in terms of TEs who spent all their time in the old sim, and he's 19th with over 100 less pancakes. It's worth mentioning that despite playing during the 14 and 13 game season era of the sim, L'Alto played so many seasons that he actually played more games at TE than anyone else all time, so a lot of his production is a result of volume. Still, he was the best TE for 4 years, and that counts for something even during a weak period at the position.
3.29: DarknessRising continues to pick Wraiths, Nero Alexander, DE
"Nero - by far and away TFL all-time leader, with decent records in less games then alot of the stat leaders, DE seems like one of the weakest positions and he played when it was actually comepetitive being one of the best, compared to later players where no compeition was had"
I disagree with some of what is said above in terms of competitiveness, as well as "less games"; despite playing through the 13 game season era, he ended up at 169 games due to playing 13 total seasons. Over those seasons, he got 5 pro bowls and 2 positional excellency awards, 1 DEotY, and 1 DLotY from the period before the DL and DB awards were split in two. Besides having the most TFLs for any player ever, Nero also placed T-24 for DE sacks, 4th in tackles, 20th in FFs, and 25th in FRs. Nero is one of the best DEs ever, but I actually think he's not even the best lifelong DE that the Wraiths have.
3.30: Let'splay picks the Wraiths DE he thinks is better, Leonard Taylor, DE
As for Taylor…sure, the competition was lower in terms of TFL stats at the time, but he does have the longest and greatest stretch as the #1 DEotY in the league with 4 straight awards. It’s just difficult to judge people who played DL in the down years at the OL position to the years where there was actually some talent at it. If I was to choose a single best DE of those available, I’d have gone for Jayce Tuck, but I took the risk that the other people wouldn’t think of him or pick him. That did not pan out. Taylor over 11 seasons had 5 pro bowls, 4 DEotY, and a pair of 1st team All Pros. He's not the TFL player Alexander was, at 37th for DEs, but he's better, in some places much better, everywhere else. 3rd in sacks, 2nd in tackles, and a jawdropping 33 Forced Fumbles. He only has 14 FRs, good for 2nd all time at DE, but 33 FFs is thirteen more than the 2 way tie for 2nd has. That's 65% more forced fumbles than 2nd.
4.31: Let'splay continues to shore up the DLine with a modern pick, Joseph Reed, DT
Joseph Reed has 1.5 DPOYs. That’s more than any other DT. He’s arguably the best through S41 outside Miller and Roth. I could have gone for the next guy up but I’m gonna let someone else draft Edd.
I wrote that pair of sentences halfway through last season, when it looked like Reed was on track for a 3rd straight 1st team all pro at the DT position coming off of back to back DPOYs. While it doesn't seem like Reed is getting a 3peat on the DPOY award, this is still someone who has only played 6 seasons so far, less than 100 games, and is 13th in sacks, T-15th in TFLs, 34th in tackles, 1st in FFs, and 2nd in FRs. Assuming he gets the 1st team all pro for S42 as seems almost assured considering his stats far outpace everyone else at the position, Reed will have 3 1st team spots and probably 3 pro bowls? Has the S41 pro bowl been posted, and if so did Reed somehow miss it? Anyways, I was debating between Reed and Big Edd for the spot but I decided that the tie went to the person who did not personally annoy me as a user, and half a season later it's no longer a contest. I'm very happy with this pair of picks.
4.32: DarknessRising adds a new position to the draft, Bruce Buckley, OL
"Fuck it, keeping it up with all YKW players lmao, but easily the best OL in league history, when there is such a thin position at the top, positional value"
Buckley has some competition for best OL in league history, but only some. He has 2 OLotY awards, 2 2nd team All Pro teams, 7 pro bowls over 13 seasons, and the 2nd most pancakes in league history. And the only person who got more pancakes gave up 28 sacks to Buckley's 18. I think there are a couple people with arguments to be better; Givussaffare Rubbe was dealing with the old sim and was a much bigger outlier in his time; Icebox Riposte has a jawdropping ratio of pancakes to sacks given up of over 100:1; if you really care more about pancakes than anything else, Stumpy Jones does have more; but no matter what I couldn't finagle a way to put Buckley lower than 4th, and I don't think Jones actually has a good argument in the first place. Really, the only thing I was surprised with was that Buckley apparently did not think he himself was the best OL of all time when he did an article ranking them around his retirement. On his own, Buckley is one of the best, and when there are clear tiers of OLine like there are, I can't fault Darkness too much for going with one here.
4.33: Zayn picks the 2nd current player after Reed, Kalam Mekhar, CB
"Two DPoTY at CB, plus 3rd all time in pd (likely will be 2nd by the end of the season). Plus 2nd all time in defensive Touchdowns."
Alongside the stats already mentioned, Mekhar also got the final edition of the Positional Excellency award for CB, three 1st team all pros and a 2nd team all pro (looking at his stats for S41 and S42, it seems doubtful that he was more than a candidate for 2nd team CB in S42 and definitely didn't make it in S41), and manages to be top 10 in all the important volume stats among CBs. He's 9th in tackles, 2nd in INTs, did indeed get to 2nd in PDs, and is 20th in forced fumbles with 12. Though, he is low down on the recovery chart due to only getting 3 of them. Also, he got to 5 pro bowls over his 11 year career so far. As one of the greatest CBs of all time, the only real question is whether Darkness would have picked him instead if he was a Wraith in the S20s instead of the S30s.
4.34: Rusfan makes Darkness sad he can't just run out there with the S20s Wraith squad, Mark Walker, WR
"(sad face)"
"I needed another receiver for my GOAT offense. And dude is a forgotten beast"
"Best WR2 in league history"
"He gets to slot in there right behind Lim."
"Somehow nearly appropriate"
Mark Walker doesn't have a TON of award recognition over his 12 year career, only making the pro bowl 3 times might make for the worst proportion of any player so far. But this was due to being WR2 behind Kai Sakura for basically his entire career, and it didn't stop him from standing out. Those 3 pro bowls coincided with a pair of 2nd team All Pros, and a 1st team All Pro that also came attached with a WRotY. But what makes him most notable is that he did all that and got all the production he got as WR2. Mark Walker owns the 3rd most receptions among WRs and paired that with the 5th most yards and the 6th most touchdowns. If nothing else, we know for CERTAIN that Walker's not going to complain about being a WR2 on offense, which is something that cannot be said often for any 2nd player at a position in this entire draft.
4.35: Infinite goes back to the well of the Old Sim LB, Mo Berry, LB
"Mo Berry heavily underrated"
"Only 3 time DPOY"
A 9 season player who only missed the Pro Bowl his rookie year, got 4 LBotY awards, and threepeated at the DPOY between S20 and S22. Really, that's all you need. A heavily dominant peak, with a shorter career that thus didn't top the volume charts the way others did. Even with the short career, he still got to 22nd in LB sacks, and most notably 3rd in PDs, all in a 126 game career. One of the best LBs ever to go along with Hank Winchester.
4.36: Modern Duke goes to the Dark Side, Jayce Tuck, DE
"(Devil Emoticon)"
"Dammit Duke I was going to get him. The records are still there and nobody else has a 30 sack season."
"Er is deciding who wins right"
"Every team is AZ. AZ will play AZ. Er won't know who to make win."
Jayce Tuck is the best player who will never make the Hall of Fame; his production is godlike, he got back to back MVPs in S2 and S3, 3 DLotY, 6 pro bowls over 9 seasons he wasn't suspended for, there's only one problem. He was cheating for at bare minimum the first 4 seasons of his career via multis, and was also the sim head and was likely cheating the entire time in other ways; not like Er was a bastion of morality and unwilling to cheat the sim. In terms of raw stats, he's 3rd in TFLs and 18th in sacks among all positions. At DE, he's 2nd in sacks by 6, having played 50 less games than the only guy above him. Suffice to say, at a position as weak all time as DE is, Tuck was arguably always going to be a good pick, and he's great as the 3rd DE off the board. This isn't as overpowered a pick as it could be, as we are not having a sim that Er can be put in charge of.
4.37: Frost picks an MVP, Carlito Crush, WR
"WR MVP! As well as 7 pro bowls, but arguably best WR season of all time with an MVP made me take him."
Crush played for 11 seasons, and still isn't that high in the all time stats; this is partly due to 2 seasons at TE on Colorado before heading over to WR and to OCO. Even accounting for that, Crush didn't have a lot of counting stats even just by rate over his 8 seasons at WR (note that he got 6 pro bowls at WR; his first one was at TE); 50th in yards, 39th in TDs, averaging just over 1000 yards and 8 TDs per season, the big claim to fame for him is his S9 season where he got over 1500 yards and 17 touchdowns. This is kind of a 1 season pick of a player, but what a one season that was. There's a lot of players with better longevity and more raw production, but arguably nobody has ever been a better WR for one season in the ISFL.
4.38: Simo has way too much for breakfast, Stumpy Jones, OL
"Pancakes, awards"
I don't personally feel that Jones is the 2nd best OL of all time; he has over 100 more pancakes than anyone else in league history, got 3 OLotY, 8 1st team All Pros and 7 Pro Bowls over a 13 year career, the problem with him is that he played one season too long and fell off hard in S40. Allowing 11 sacks, the 3rd most all time for a single season in the new sim and T-16th overall, this ballooned his sack allowed count to 28, tied for 10th all time. If he had retired before S40, I think I'd argue he has an argument to be the best OL of all time, but S40 just stunk so much from him.
4.39: Mobi picks someone who didn't retire in the last 10 seasons for once, Andrew Witten, CB
Witten is a well rounded CB. He has one CBotY, 5 pro bowls, and a couple 1st team All Pros over 11 seasons of play. He is 3rd in tackles, 5th in picks, and 14th in PDs. There's not really any holes to mention in his game; while he's a bit low on the PD chart for someone as high up everywhere else, this can be pretty neatly explained via his first 5 seasons taking place before the sim switch. He's a great CB without really any downside in his game.
4.40: Negs picks another Sim Switch WR, Tugg Speedman, WR
"HOF top 10 in tons of receiving stats"
Speedman played for 11 years, got one positional excellency award at WR (as well as 3 Returner of the Year awards), got 6 Pro Bowls and 3 All Pros. He's similar to Kingston, except he trades the smallest bit of raw production for a much higher peak. He's 9th in yards, 17th in touchdowns, and 4th in receptions. Considering Negs is getting him as his WR2 and as the 6th WR off the board in total, this is a really great value pick.