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+---- Thread: *The All Time Draft, Rounds 15 and 16 (/showthread.php?tid=47030)
*The All Time Draft, Rounds 15 and 16 - ztarwarz - 08-16-2023
With this project reaching the final quarter of its lifetime, I thought it might be worth going over team needs.
Negs needs 2 more DL, a TE, an OL, a Safety, and a Kicker. While this is going to leave Negs with one of the worst Front 7s in the group, he is one of very few people who didn't take the plunge on any of the 3 players who even at the very end will be serviceable in TE, OL, and Kicker.
Mobi needs 2 DL, an LB, a Safety, a Kicker, and his choice of a DL or an LB for his final pick. Again, Mobi will have one of the worst front sevens considering he needs to fill out more than half of it in this ending part of the draft. At least his LBs will (probably) be better than Negs'.
Simo needs an RB, a Safety, a QB, an LB, an OFlex, and a DL/LB. Simo is one of the bigger and thus worse examples of "jumping early on deep positions", and as such is going to have to take some pretty mediocre players at positions where you needed more than one player.
Frost needs a Safety, an LB, an OL, a CB, a Kicker, and a DL/LB. Considering Frost got one of the high end TEs before the dropoff with Johnny Blaze, this is a good slate of needs in my book.
Modern Duke needs a QB, an OL, a DL, a Kicker, an Oflex, and a DL/LB. When your only possible "Jumping the gun" pick was Paul DiMirio, then you really didn't jump the gun at all.
Infinite needs 2 DL, a Safety, a TE, a Kicker, and an OL. Infinite's remaining draft is basically split down the middle at "positions who you could leave until round 20 and get a good player out of" and "positions where you needed to draft them before round 10 to get a great player out of".
Rusfan needs an RB, an LB, an OL, a Kicker, an OFlex, and a DL/LB. Nothing too special to remark on here, the only position Rusfan pulled the trigger on early was the one where more people did than otherwise.
Zayn needs a QB, an LB, an OL, a Kicker, an Oflex, and a DL/LB. When you jumped the TE line for Verso L'Alto, I have no complaints.
DarknessRising needs an RB, a TE, a DL, a CB, a Kicker, and an OFlex. The biggest problem with Darkness' draft so far, other than the couple times when he's picked Yellowknife players over better competition, was picking Bruce Buckley in round 4.
Let'splay needs a QB, an LB, an OL, a Kicker, an OFlex, and a DL/LB. I think Angler was the last TE that you could justify jumping ahead of everyone else in the TE line for, so in terms of needs the only thing that sticks out is that I still need a QB, which is an artifact of being the 10th pick.
Anyways, back to the draft.
15.141: Negs selects a player that he knows, Daron Arnold, DE
"Arnold
1 ultimus
4 pro bowl, 3 first team all pro, 1 2nd team
Has some good postseason, one of the more consistent DLs of hsi generation
and i know who both players are"
Is it fair to be more than a little annoyed, as a Rams fan, that this is a DE and not a DT? That aside, Arnold's accolades are actually better than that. He's gotten another 1st team and 2nd team All Pro, and a couple more pro bowls too. Over 9 seasons before S43, Daron Arnold has been almost as good as Aaron Donald has been in real life. He's 9th in sacks, T-37th in TFLs, 10th in tackles, T-4th in FF, and T-5th in FR. He's been absolutely outstanding and might legitimately be the best DE drafted since David Moyes all the way back in Round 5. A+ for sure, and a really nice salve over how bad the rest of Negs' front seven is so far.
15.142: Mobi first tries to pick Joseph Reed, then picks a player that the user themselves doesn't know how they were drafted, Carly Rae Jensen, DT
"I'm not sure it's a good sign when I have to look up who a player is and what position they play"
"I assume Carly Rae Jepson
Unconfident player getting pick is crazy
Bro has one season with more then 10 sacks"
"How tf did uc get taken
Mobi what are you cooking"
"It was 15 smh"
"next part gonnna feature my slander i think lets go
wont even be slander ngl itll be facts"
"Nope, not next part
Part after that will cover you as the player with one season over 10 sacks"
":Fire:
never gonna do that shit again too thats the best part"
If you look up Jensen on the HOF resume thing via Wolfiebot, you find out that she has played for 5 full seasons, all in Austin, and has a share of tied for 1st in terms of Safeties in a game. With one. That's it.
Granted, she has a little more than that. She has a 1st Team All Pro (as the 2nd best DT behind Reed) for S42, along with a single Pro Bowl. But again, that's it. She's 47th in sacks and T-29th in TFLs, T-19th for FFs and T-30th for FRs. That's her entire resume. This was what I assumed was either the worst or the second worst pick of the entire draft, and while that ended up not being the case, this is still an F. There's almost definitely literally a dozen players with a better resume than Jensen has at this point in time than being the 2nd best DT one year, and a grand total of 13 TFLs and 14 Sacks over her other 4 seasons.
15.143: Simo again picks a player over multiple HOFers, Lonnie Jackson, RB
"13th in rush yards and TDs. A handful of pro bowls."
Not sure I agree fully with this pick. Lonnie played 11 seasons and only made 3 Pro Bowls, and was 2nd Team All Pro once, in a time where that means that he was considered the 3rd best RB that year. Suffice to say, both remaining RBs in the Hall have better ratios and resumes at this point. Though, Jackson does trump them in terms of volume and efficiency. He's 14th all time in yards per carry among RBs at 4.54, and also adds being T-39th in receiving touchdowns and 47th in yards at 9.6 ypr. I do like the pick in terms of efficiency, but only making a second team once really downgrades this pick in my book. I think, ignoring everything else, players like Kumquat Archipelago and especially Adebayo Akinfenwa were better picks (and neither of them ended up getting picked at all), as well as both HOF RBs remaining, and thus this pick gets an F. Way too many better RBs still on the table. Funnily enough, Simo still doesn't have a bad RB pool considering he picked up Jay Cue Jr, but I ended up rating both of his picks very very low.
15.144: Frost gets one of the last, least satisfactory safeties still on the board, Eugene Smoothie, S
"6x Pro Bowler, 1x 1st team AP, 1x 2nd team AP
Safeties getting thin so wanted to make sure I could snag a competent one"
"Stop taking the players I want"
Smoothie played for 11 seasons, and is pretty high up in volume stats besides his decent award cabinet. He's 12th in tackles, T-20th in picks, T-22nd in PDs, T-14th in Sacks, and T-7th in FFs. However, this pick is getting downgraded a lot. There are 4 other players left in the draft who will get picked at the Safety position. One of them I can safely say Smoothie is better than. Another would be the subject of some debate in my head about who was better. And then the other two are just easily, easily better than Smoothie. As such this is a D-, Orpheus Czargyros and Jasper Fontaine are just unquestionably better picks in my head, and Fontaine was picked outside of the scope of this part that we're just at the start of.
15.145: Modern Duke takes the plunge on a HOF, Apollo Reed, OFlex
"Apollo solidarity"
"reed - interesting HoF case in hindsight, but can't take it away from him"
Calling Reed's Hall of Fame case shaky in hindsight is an insult to the leaning tower of Pisa. That being said, 1 positional Excellency award and 4 pro bowls (though not one in his RBotY season?) is a pretty decent resume compared to the RBs who have been picked recently; at minimum I prefer it over Lonnie Jackson. Reed also only played 9 seasons and 121 games, making his volume stats much easier to stomach: 22nd in rushing yards, 32nd in touchdowns, at an amazing for the old sim 4.35 ypc. He also had a lot of playoff production, though not exactly efficient playoff production. As such, I'm giving this a flat B as a pick; he's a decent RB at this slot, and although I personally would prefer a 3rd WR to a 3rd RB in terms of a flex pick, picking an efficient RB when you have the least efficient RB picked as one of your two isn't an awful decision.
15.146: Infinite takes the Safety that I think is worse than Eugene though can be argued otherwise, Shawn Dawkins, S
Dawkins played for 10 seasons over the same time as Eugene, and ended up kind of splitting with him in terms of production, though he's worse in terms of accolades. 5 Pro Bowls and no All Pro teams makes for arguably the worst Safety award cabinet of anyone, considering his final 5 seasons had All Pro teams. He's 28th in tackles, T-7th in picks, 11th in PDs, T-4th in defensive TDs, T-39th in Sacks, and T-19th in FFs. Eugene was better at tackling, but Dawkins is one of the best ball hawk safeties ever. Funnily enough, I believe this is the first player that Infinite has picked who had anywhere near a significant amount of time in the new sim, and I believe it's also the wrong player. D- as a pick, again both Fontaine and Czargyros have much better resumes and I do think he's slightly worse than Eugene. As such, I think Infinite ends up with one of the weaker secondaries, along with mine and Rusfan. Actually, it might be worse than mine; I think his CBs are worse than my Safeties by a pretty significant distance. Either way, not great.
15.147: Rusfan picks the best YPC player all time currently, Michaelangelo McTurtle, RB
"we have now picked every turtle that isn't donatello"
"justice for donatello"
This McTurtle has played RB for 7 seasons, and has nearly 5 yards per carry, 4.96 to be exact as of the end of S42. He is in the top 20 all time of yards per carry as something other than an Old Sim QB or an Old Sim Broken Power Back. That being said, his award cabinet is...kind of lacking. He was 1st team All Pro twice, and 2nd team All Pro once, neither 1st team came as the number 1 overall RB, and 4 Pro Bowls isn't an excellent amount considering his most recent one came as the 3rd best RB in a conference without the best RBs in the league. Still, his volume stats are actually pretty excellent. He's only played 112 games and is 24th in yards, T-25th in touchdowns, 28th in receiving yards, and T-37th in receiving touchdowns at 9.8 yards per reception. I think McTurtle is better than Reed, though not significantly so, and as such I'm giving him a B+ as a grade.
15.148: Zayn gets another early player who flew under the radar, Jaylon Lee, LB
"5 time pro bowler, 1 time LBoTY, won the Ultimus 4 times and is a HOF player"
Lee only played 140 games, and is 16th in tackles, T-24th in Sacks, and T-27th in PDs. Considering how little he actually played, that's quite a nice volume stat total. Lee is extremely comparable in my head to Ernest Lover, less production with less games, but a much better award cabinet, and as such is getting the same ranking as Lover did almost a round later. A+, and in another world Zayn could have gotten killed due to leaving his LB2 and LB3 until Rounds 14 and 15. Instead he has an amazing trio and managed to pick them later than a lot of other people with great LB groups.
15.149: Darkness Rising picks a player with a short career but a lot of awards, John Huntsman, RB
"I'm so nervous darkness will pick the guy I want"
"so its either a DL/LB or the Oflex
dont need TE or CB
and i doubt you want a particualr kicker this bad"
"no you don't understand, I NEED Wolfie"
"Still needing RB/Oflex, had to make a move on securing one, and figured taking the RB leavees the options at OFlex more plentiful
Huntsman i believe will be about to enter the HoF ballot contention, and will be a close one. Compared to the likes of Mako, the only HoF RB left, he beats him everywhich way to Sunday, having better volume in all but receiving recetions (by about 20) whilst having more efficiency. Same amount of pro bowls at 6, but Huntsman also as a OPoTY to go to his name. Biggest difference you could give, is Huntsman doesn't have a ring. So whilst could argue Mako may not deserve to be HoF, if he is in it, Huntsman should make it as easily a better player, and in my mind gives me a 'free future HoF'"
Huntsman got a pair of 1st and 2nd team All Pros over his 8 year career, and placed 21st in rushing yards, an astonishing 10th in rushing touchdowns at 4.51 ypc, 16th in receiving yards, and T-14th in receiving touchdowns at 10.2 yards per reception. Really, I don't see an argument for Mendonca to be considered better than Huntsman, especially considering the complete lack of a RBotY award for Mako. I think Huntsman is also arguably better than Apollo Reed, though that one is much, much closer. A+ as a pick, better than arguably multiple RBs taken earlier in the round. I think Huntsman is easily better than Ashley Owens, for example, and he was taken over 4 full rounds ago. Great value pick here.
15.150: Let'splay finally takes his 3rd LB, L'Gazzy Burfict, LB
"These two linebackers are not in the Hall, but haven’t been on a ballot yet. Gazzy was a bit of a compiler, but it’s hard to say he didn’t do a great job of compiling, being top 10 in sacks, TFLs, and forced fumbles, with a good amount of pass deflections. He also had a couple great playoff runs and managed to pick up a ring. Also, he might be a little sentimental due to being a fellow S25 Outlaw Draftee."
Gazzy made a pair of 2nd team All Pros, though only one Pro Bowl somehow. He played 12 seasons, and as I said was a bit of a compiler. He's 23rd in tackles, 7th in sacks, T-9th in TFLs, T-23rd in PDs, 3rd in FFs and T-14th in FRs. As mentioned above, Gazzy's peak wasn't amazing, but he managed to get double digit sacks for 9 straight seasons up until the final twilight year of his career. I think this is a C pick. Not awful, but could have been better.
16.151: Let'splay tries to pick someone picked a while ago, does a rush pick in response, dont draft, LB
"cussion taken by rus"
"shhhh
i was waiting to see his reasoning of his big steal"
"shit"
"Dont draft is a bit of a rush pick, but I wanted some help on the pass defense end, and he’s near the top in terms of PDs and INTs for a linebacker, with good albeit unspectacular contributions in other places."
"LP just misses unicorn"
dont draft played for 11 seasons, made one pro bowl and won a 1st team all pro (not in the same season) though I feel a large part of that comes from what and why I was picking him. 19th in tackles, 29th in sacks, T-7th in TFLs, 2nd in picks, T-20th in PDs, T-15th in FF and T-19th in FR, draft grades out as a C in my head as well. He has weaknesses, as well as a distinct lack of awards, but it's been very hard for a pass defending LB to get pro bowls for a while, as seen with him missing out during a year where he won 1st Team All Pro. I'm OK with my LBs considering the strength of my first two, but it leaves me with a more middle of the pack LB corps instead of a top tier one despite how I started.
16.152: Darkness Rising picks a player from when I first joined the league, Son Goku, DE
"Looking around I think there was actually still decent depth knowing there is quite alot of DL/LB needing to be taken, but alot of award winners are taken so mostly looking at stats. Some still pretty good all-time stats DE and DT remain imo, but Goku nips them all. 5th in sacks, 11th in TFL, 9th in tackles, whilst being equal 7th in safties (one behind the leaders), T-11th in FF and T-7th in FF. Might only have 3 Pro Bowls and a DRoTY, for personal achivement, but alongside 2 rings, all stats being top 11 or better, not bad for someone who is like the 25-27th DL taken, and around 14th for his DE position specifically"
Is it at all weird that I think of Son Goku as an OCO player despite him never playing for them? At the time I joined the league there were a massive amount of Dragon Ball characters on OCO. Over 11 seasons, he's 6th in sacks among DEs, with the rest going as Darkness said above. Goku's biggest issue is a lack of awards, with only 3 Pro Bowls and only a single 2nd team All Pro. That being said, that's still quite an impressive set of stats. I'm going to give this a C- though, the last few DL players have been much, much better than Goku.
16.153: Zayn is the 2nd player to jump the gun, Turk Turkleton, K
"I decided to go kicker here
With 8 pro bowls, 3 kicker of the year and 3 punter of the year I felt like he was in the convo for best K/P ever, as I top of these accolades he is still third in XP and 6th in FG"
I don't agree. In fact, I don't like this pick at all. Specifically, I don't like that one of Zayn's major justifications for this is how many field goals and extra points he kicked. For example, that 3rd in XP comes on the 50th best percentage of any kicker with at least 50 games played, barely over 94% of makes. And while he's a hell of a lot better at field goal percentage, he's still 18th with a ton of HOFers ahead of him. He's not better on the punting front either, with a lot of Hall of Famers beating him in both average yardage and punts inside the 20. At bare minimum, I think Venus Powers, Jacob Small, Matty McDairmid, Alex Dasistwirklichseinnachname, and Micycle McCormick are just flat out better kickers and punters simultaneously. As a result, this is getting an F despite not getting anywhere near as big of a penalty in my head as Simo did for picking Kulture Future so early.
16.154: Rusfan picks a player who helped me learn that inactives don't make the pro bowl and can't win positional excellency awards automatically, Rapid Eagle, DT
Rapid Eagle made 3 pro bowls, plus a 1st Team All Pro while inactive that meant he really made 4 in my head. He did that last one after switching to DE, though he was always on the DL. Over 10 seasons, 154 games, he got 76 sacks (would be 9th among DTs and DEs) and 58 TFLs (would be 2nd among DTs, T-22nd among DEs). Pretty good, would have won DEotY if he was active for S28, and in general a pick that I think is better than Goku. I originally had Son Goku as a B-, but with Eagle here I'm bumping him down a letter and giving Eagle a flat B.
16.155: Infinite takes a player who I cannot decide whether they should have gone earlier or not, Austin McCormick, TE
"How big is the drop off from McCormick to the non HOF TEs?"
"I think decently
McCormick to me probs shoulda been picked over some of the others"
I feel like McCormick belonged over Penne and Evans, but I'm not sure he should have gone earlier than this in terms of round number. He's in the back half of the top 10 all time as far as TEs go, with 6 Pro Bowls and 2 TEotY awards over his 10 season career. Over 148 games, Austin is 6th in yards, T-8th in receiving touchdowns, 11th in yards per reception at 10.2, and is 26th in pancakes with only 3 sacks allowed. I think I have to give this an A+ ranking as a pick, I don't love McCormick or anything, I think he's decently worse than Salem, but Salem was taken nearly 4 full rounds ago and every TE left on the board is worse by a decent chunk.
16.156: Modern Duke goes for a kicker, though at least this one is arguably the GOAT, Alex Dasistwirklichseinnachname, K
"Purpose of game to score points. I pick player with most points"
"damn he took my #2 guy
you stinkers are gonna make me reach for micycle aren't you"
"Sorry, duke, who did you pick? I don't recognize them.
I'm gonna need you to type out their name in full"
"I resign"
"sweet, i will be taking Dasistwirklichseinnachname thank you very much"
Alex played 13 seasons, went to 7 pro bowls, won a pair of PotY and KotY awards, but his most notable achievements are in volume. He has the 2nd most punt yards ever at the 11th best punt average of all time, and he has made the 2nd most extra points and the most field goals ever. To be frank, he's a little off at extra points, sub 95% and only 47th among Ks, barely better than Turkleton. But he's the 2nd most accurate kicker on field goals ever, and as mentioned in the Future section, the only better player spent the declining years of his career at QB rather than extending his kicking career to ridiculous lengths despite what was, if I remember correctly, a peak TPE well below 1000. At 92.5%, he's one of only 8 players who made over 90% of their field goals in their career. Granted, Alex wasn't asked to kick 50+ yarders often, only 24 of his record 374 field goal attempts were from 50, but that's not that much of an issue. He's even one of the best old sim punters both in terms of average and in terms of percent of punts inside the 20! An almost unimpeachable resume, Modern Duke picks a GOAT tier kicker and does so without having to pick him 4 rounds before anyone else picked a kicker. A rank pick.
16.157: Frost picks an LB who flew under the radar, but one that I like, Jack Banks, LB
"5x Pro Bowler, 2x 1st team AP, as well as a ring and a 20 sack season.
Very underrated career"
Part of it was probably that Banks only played 9 seasons, making the 5 pro bowls a much more impressive total. He's 30th in tackles, 15th in sacks, and 19th in PDs despite only 144 games played. I feel like Banks is probably a bit better of an LB than both of the ones I ended up picking at the turn round, and as such this is getting an A- as a pick. Not much else to say about him, except that a single ring doesn't really matter that much to me for an LB, or really any position that isn't a QB specifically.
16.158: Simo gets the best safety of this section of the draft, Orpheus Czargyros, S
"3x Pro Bowls
2x First Team All-Pro
2x Second Team
Top 20 (or top 17 really) in a few of the big stats."
The weirdest thing about Czargyros is that he missed the Pro Bowl in both of his 2nd Team seasons. He only moved to Safety in S34, so his first Pro Bowl doesn't really count, but he has a DPOY on top of the things already mentioned for a season in which he tied the record for most defensive touchdowns. For more exact numbers, Orpheus is 14th in picks, 17th in PDs, T-4th in defensive TDs, T-19th in FFs, and T-4th in FRs. This is while playing 128 games and only 8 seasons at Safety. I think I'd argue that he had a better career than Dee Walt, who has more Pro Bowls but a lot less accolades despite a longer career and more stats. And Walt was picked back in round 10. He blows both Dawkins and Smoothie out of the water in my estimation, and they were drafted a round ago. A+ pick.
16.159: Mobi Picks Himself, Solace Avenger, LB
Solace Avenger looks like the worst LB pick of the entire draft if you search his name up. Over 8 seasons played, he had a single Pro Bowl appearance and a 2nd Team All Pro. This does leave off his amazing S41 season (seriously SFWG, post the S41 All Pro team at least) where he got a 1st Team All Pro for getting the T-2nd most tackles and T-5th most TFLs all time in a single season, but there's still one thing that sinks this in my book. He split time over the course of his career, as a DT until S40, and barely makes the top 50 all time in any stat for LBs even if I combined his time at both positions. He has 2 good seasons at LB, one great season, and then 5 completely unremarkable seasons at DT. Not the worst pick in the world as it turns out, but he's still getting a D.
16.160: Negs takes what is in my opinion the wrong player, Swantavius Payne, OL
Payne has played for 8 seasons, which in my opinion is the big problem with this pick. Right now, Payne looks like he's one of the greatest OL ever; he's 7th in pancakes with only 7 sacks allowed, has 3 1st team and 4 2nd team All Pros, one of the best Pancake:Sack Allowed ratios ever at 131:1, but there's one really big problem compared to all the people who have retired: He hasn't retired yet. Swantavius Payne has not gone deep into regression, has not been in the twilight of his career, and has not had the time yet where he allows 5 sacks in a season as he goes into the sunset. That's something pretty much every great OL has had to deal with, and as such I feel Payne's career looks more exceptional than it actually will be. As such I feel there were better OL still on the board, even if they didn't necessarily look better statistically. C pick.
RE: The All Time Draft, Rounds 15 and 16 - Raven - 08-16-2023
Still an A+ pick in my eyes Zayn, haters gonna hate
RE: The All Time Draft, Rounds 15 and 16 - zaynzk - 08-16-2023
Hating on Turk Turkleton smh, tell Alex D to get more pro bowls then we will talk
Matty McDiarmid didnt even make the Hall
RE: The All Time Draft, Rounds 15 and 16 - Baron1898 - 08-16-2023
L take on Turk, possibly still the GOAT kicker
RE: The All Time Draft, Rounds 15 and 16 - ztarwarz - 08-16-2023
(08-16-2023, 02:53 PM)zaynzk Wrote: Hating on Turk Turkleton smh, tell Alex D to get more pro bowls then we will talkThe fun thing is that there's a grand total of 0 rate stats where Turkleton is better than McDiarmid. He is a worse kicker at every single range (not counting the U20 range, where they are both tied with 100%), and has both a lower average punt distance, and a worse ratio of punts inside the 20 even if I ignored every single punt Matty took in the new sim. Literally the only argument Turkleton has is a better award cabinet and that's mostly due to what I think were shitty award voters.
Matty McDiarmid didnt even make the Hall