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+---- Thread: *Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton (/showthread.php?tid=9505)
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - tlk742 - 07-09-2018
For those who do not know, I am a Jets fan. As a Jets fan, defending Joe Namath comes with the territory. The question stops becoming if a players had the best stats, but if that player was considered Elite at the time. Break Bottles got the same number of votes as Chris Orosz. Bottles was not elite. Orosz was.
Although Orosz had a weird, if not crazy, career arc, I don’t think anyone would have excluded him from a top tier Quaterback. In season 1, he was behind only one quarterback in passer yards, Draxel. He led the league (excluding quarterbacks throwing for under 10 passes) in Passer Rating. In Season 2, Ororsz was given his accolade as Quarterback of the Year where he led the league in Touchdowns, Yards, and Passer Rating, becoming the first Quarterback to earn the Triple Crown. In season 3, he fell to second behind Mike Boss, a sign that Boss’s star was on the rise. Season four and five is interesting because his stats took a nose dive as the Cats looked to utilize their run game way more than their passing game, and while his yards dove, his accuracy never did. Orosz went from the Gunslinger of Brett Favre to the accurate passer of Alex Smith. In Season 6, the Sabercats got him back to a gunslinger as he threw for the league’s third highest in yards while being one of the lowest in completion percentage. Season 7 just sucked.
But what do you make of all this? I make that he was Elite, and threat that teams had to plan for even in his Alex Smith days. Orosz was careful with his ball handling, throwing a mere 87 interceptions in his 3,781 passing attempts. He threw a little over 2% of all passes for an interception. Conversely, Boss and Bronko sit at about the same. And he was considered on par with them.
Just so you understand how crazy good Orosz was, with the exception of season 3, he was a top 3 quarterback in terms of least interceptions thrown. He was dangerously scary with the football because defenses couldn’t rely on him like Bronko, Boss and Pierno to turn the ball over in the air, and his security was second to none. Chris Orosz never threw more interceptions than touchdowns in any season. That’s something that no other quarterback who started as a quarterback can say. Even at low TPE, Orosz was a dangerous player on the field.
It’s not just about the numbers, and that’s what people miss, Defenses hated to play against him and he was the first NSFL Quarterback to really cause GMs to plan around him, especially in Yellowknife. He is up there with Boss and Bronko. If you don’t think both of those belong in the Hall, then ok, but to say Bronko does and Orosz doesn’t is a crime.
As for Wyatt Fulton, the story is simple. Dude created the Yeti and the Yeti were good under him (til Noble fiasco). You cannot tell the story on the NSFL without him. He belongs in the Hall, maybe as a GM more than a player.
writers note: I'm looking forward to when people say that Vincent Sharpei, Boss Tweed and Owen Taylor don't belong in the Hall, because they absolutely do, look at more than the numbers.
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - Muford - 07-09-2018
@Aenir
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - Muford - 07-09-2018
Also, I'm quite curious who is on the HOF Committee and their reasonings for not picking Orosz, and I'd love to hear the 2 that did and why as well.
@ADwyer87
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - iamslm22 - 07-09-2018
I'm not gonna address Orosz right now, but Fulton? As a GM? Come on. Dude GMed for what, two seasons? Are we inducting all founding GMs? No way.
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - DELIRIVM - 07-09-2018
I definitely don't deserve the Hall. But I would say Orosz does!
Thanks for writing about me, man.
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - ADwyer87 - 07-09-2018
(07-09-2018, 09:20 PM)Muford Wrote:Also, I'm quite curious who is on the HOF Committee and their reasonings for not picking Orosz, and I'd love to hear the 2 that did and why as well.1 vote per HO, 1 vote per team
@ADwyer87
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - Oles - 07-09-2018
(07-09-2018, 11:13 PM)tlk742 Wrote:As for Wyatt Fulton, the story is simple. Dude created the Yeti and the Yeti were good under him (til Noble fiasco). You cannot tell the story on the NSFL without him. He belongs in the Hall, maybe as a GM more than a player.
I want to specifically hone in on this point. A lot of people are unsure of T-Oles and his hall of fame status. Many think I didn't go long enough with him and that if I had gone longer it would be an easy decision. If we were to look at it like this, and Fulton should be a hall of famer due to GMing, then it would be easy to say I also deserve to be in the Hall with T-Oles. Including an Ultimus victory and a GMOTY award, I setup the Liberty to win the Ultimus and become the first NSFC team to win it. Now, if we are including GM career for players it gives an unnecessary advantage to players who don't need it since they already tend to be max earners. Putting GM stats in with player stats is a slippery slope, which could allow @run_CMC to make it even though we all know Dean Jackson is bad.
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - dropbear - 07-09-2018
(07-10-2018, 01:13 PM)tlk742 Wrote:As for Wyatt Fulton, the story is simple. Dude created the Yeti and the Yeti were good under him (til Noble fiasco). You cannot tell the story on the NSFL without him. He belongs in the Hall, maybe as a GM more than a player.
Please tell me this is a joke? Your threshold for what is supposed to be the most prestigious and difficult to obtain honour in the NSFL is to have created a team and then gone IA?
You can't tell the story of the NSFL without Er, keygan, hell even Ben Longshaw. Are they all HOF-worthy?
The HOF is reserved for players/GMS with illustrious careers that far exceeded others.
Orosz led the league in TDs once (and it was tied). He led the league in passing yards once. In the same season as TDs. He was the QB to throw the least interceptions twice (both tied). Sure, he had a great career from S1 - S3, but was a mediocre, journeyman QB from S4 onwards.
If Orosz gets admitted into the HOF, you might as well open the floodgates because that means that the bar is not the best of the best, it's simply any long-term starter.
And @Aenir, this isn't personal. You were a great QB and I'm stoked to have you in KCC. But the HOF needs to be very hard to get into for it to maintain any semblance of exclusivity.
What I want to know is who the hell voted for Break Bottles?!
EDIT: and for what it's worth, I think Mike Boss is the only QB of our era who deserves to be admitted to the HOF
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - adam2552 - 07-09-2018
Orosz, 0-4 in playoffs. Gotta be able to win when they count.
*Chris Orosz and Wyatt Fulton - ADwyer87 - 07-10-2018
Well, time to pick this apart.
Quote:Conversely, Boss and Bronko sit at about the same. And he was considered on par with them.
Quote: I make that he was Elite, and threat that teams had to plan for even in his Alex Smith days.
ummmmm. as a former GM, i have to disagree
Quote:Just so you understand how crazy good Orosz was, with the exception of season 3, he was a top 3 quarterback in terms of least interceptions thrown.
False. Season 2, he threw the 3rd MOST interceptions of the 8 starters, S7 he threw the 4th most
Quote:He was dangerously scary with the football because defenses couldn’t rely on him like Bronko, Boss and Pierno to turn the ball over in the air, and his security was second to none.
excuse me??? i have 5 more interceptions than him in a little over 100 more throws, my interceptions percentage is nearly the same as his. Boss the same, he has a lot more ints but a ton more passes. Akselsen is a little higher than him on ints too, but its literally 2.2% vs. 2.3% vs. 2.4% vs. 2.5%. then you got Blocksdale at 2.1%, so theres that. But honestly, if your main thing is "but interceptions!" really all this proves is he's around the right area. If your case is based solely on ints, which it seems to be, that doesnt really work. Also, come on man, saying "Bronko, Boss, and Pierno" like our interception rates of, respectively, 0.1% and 0.2% higher than Orosz' are the same as Pierno's ungodly 7.7% interception rate is just silly bro.
Quote:Chris Orosz never threw more interceptions than touchdowns in any season. That’s something that no other quarterback who started as a quarterback can say.
So incredibly wrong. I can say that. Vincent Draxel can say that. Ethan Hunt can say that. Mat Akselsen can say that. Wallace Stone can say that. Tyler Oles can say that. Borkus Maximus can say that. Its not a super exclusive club, and honestly, a few names in the club are far from elite. In fact, 4 members of this club are barely in it: Hunt, Maximus, Stone, and your boy Orosz.
Quote:Defenses hated to play against him and he was the first NSFL Quarterback to really cause GMs to plan around him, especially in Yellowknife.
Once again, as former GM, I would disagree. Boss was the first GM that made me gameplan around.
Quote:He is up there with Boss and Bronko. If you don’t think both of those belong in the Hall, then ok, but to say Bronko does and Orosz doesn’t is a crime.
Now I am partially biased against this, but once again, I must disagree. This is where I'll back up my stuff with some stats. We already know, interception rates of the trio are nearly identical. But what about TDs, passer rating, and completion percentage?
QB 1: TD ratio - 5.4%, TD/INT ratio - 2.21, YPA - 7.8, career passer rating - 93.1, highest passer rating - 103.8, lowest passer rating - 67.4, career completion percentage - 60.6, highest completion percentage - 65.3%, lowest completion percentage - 55.8%
QB 2: TD ratio - 5.2%, TD/INT ratio - 2.23, YPA - 7.3, career passer rating - 89.4, highest passer rating - 96.0, lowest passer rating - 77.1, career completion percentage - 59.4, highest completion percentage - 67.3%, lowest completion percentage - 55.0%
QB 3: TD ratio - 3.8%, TD/INT ratio - 1.69, YPA - 6.9, career passer rating - 82.9, highest passer rating - 88.4, lowest passer rating - 71.6, career completion percentage - 58.3, highest completion percentage - 63.6%, lowest completion percentage - 52.2%
So i wanna start going over this, since i feel like career stat wise, this is what is gonna matter (besides interception ratio which we already went over). QB 1 is Boss, QB 2 is Bronko, and QB 3 is Orosz. I think the first two stats are the most damning by far. Yeah, Orosz was a marginally safer qb than the two, with 4.5-9% lower INT ratio. But the TD ratio is a huge difference, with a 37-42% lower TD ratio.
Then the TD/INT ratio comes in, with Bronko actually in the lead (dab). Now of course theres the ratio, which overall is not too terrible at 31-32%, but still not ideal. But i think the difference is overall better told with the ratio above 1 and just the raw difference. I think the ratio above one is more important just because, well, honestly, any QB that has more INTs than TDs is garbo. i think dead even has to be the standard for at least a decent QB. Then, using that info, the ratio over "replacement QB" would be a much more staggering is a much more alarming 75-78%. Also i just think the raw numbers are pretty telling. Sure, overall Orosz threw less INTs, but then to consider that for every INT thrown, Bronko and Boss threw a little over a half a TD more than him.
I think next is career passer rating and completion percentage. First i'll start with completion percentage, because honestly, its marginal, and its only fair of me to throw it out. Secondly is career passer rating. Boss is 2nd overall in career, Bronko is 3rd overall. Orosz is 6th, and i think the ranking and raw difference is good evidence.
Lastly, I think the key is seasons. I think the thing that truly sets him back is that elite season, or that season record. Thats not everything of course, but i think it counts for something. He does have S1-2 top QB, but I think in the end it didnt stand the test of (very short) time. I think this is the big thing i see as a difference:
Boss - Single Game Passing Yards Record(522), Single Game Passing TDs Record(8), 4 in the top 10 in Passing Completions(1st-420, T-2nd-412, 5th-392, 7th-380), 4 in the top 10 in Completion Percentage(2nd-65.3%, 6th-62.1%, 9th-60.9, 10th-60.7), 5 in the top 10 in Passing Yards(1st-5545, 2nd-5516, 3rd-5318, 5th-5077, 7th-5043), 3 in the top 10 in Passing TDs(T-3rd-41, 5th-40, T-9th-36), 3 in the top 10 in passer rating(1st-103.8, 2nd-99.2, 4th-98.6)
Bronko - 2 in the top 10 Pass Completions(T-2nd-412, 10th-371), 1st in Completion Percentage(67.8), 2 in the top 10 of Passing Yards(8th-5000, 10th-4719), 1st in Passing TDs(44), 2 in the top 10 in passer rating(9th-96, 10th-94.9)
Orosz - Single Game Passer Rating Record(157.5), T-3rd in Completion Percentage in a Season(63.6%)
Lastly i think with the highpoints, the difference is the low points for these QBs. Boss had the worst season in S1, but obviously made up for it with like, the rest of his career being incredible haha. Bronko's bad seasons were very high. Like i think at times i was the 4th-5th best QB in the league, but thats still at my worst i was an average QB that put up solid numbers, and at my best I broke records. I think when you look at Orosz, he hit the super low points like in S7, but his high points just weren't as high as the other QBs.
I know i just kinda shit on Orosz, so I wanna say that I think he is still a great QB. I just think in the end, he is a Hall of Very Good player.
Quote:As for Wyatt Fulton, the story is simple. Dude created the Yeti and the Yeti were good under him (til Noble fiasco). You cannot tell the story on the NSFL without him. He belongs in the Hall, maybe as a GM more than a player.
This is potentially a reason to add a builder(which i hope to add, but later) but not the actual player, Fulton. I also think this is bad logic for two reasons. One, Fulton was only GM for two seasons, right? And made the playoffs once. If thats the basis for a Hall of Fame "builder", half the league is gonna be in there by the time we're done. Two, the Noble scandal. His success is tied to Noble cheating. Thats the same reason I would invalidate myself from builder status, since my success is tied to the Er scandal. That of course is not to say he was bad, just a red flag imo