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+---- Thread: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) (/showthread.php?tid=29308)
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - iamslm22 - 01-20-2021
A lot of interesting points. I had wondered about Diminishing returns on r/NFL myself - but I think the attack on the capital is the biggest reason why it was a small class.
On top of that though - I kind of agree with TC. This league is gigantic.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - qWest - 01-20-2021
(01-20-2021, 05:10 AM)AdamS Wrote: #1 I didn't say 20 was normal. I said it was a full roster. Including multiple o-line players and at least one backup on each side. And as someone else alluded to...this number has never actually been a reality. It's literally the number I use because its so big it cant be called underselling.
This is the number one thing I've become more and more concerned about. Even since my time joining with the S22 class I've seen the insane depth and saturation of teams around the league become so normalized and it isn't a good thing for anyone. For GMs and teams it makes team building so much less of a challenge. Being in the OCO war room the last few seasons has been pretty boring for the draft, we were set up so well that all of our possible moves to improve the team mostly involved moving aging or near regression players to OL, we barely really cared about the draft, and for a while weren't even putting out scouting for the S26 draft. That leads to it being worse and worse for players, there are fewer and fewer spots season after season for players in popular positions and especially for lower activity players, who basically only have a place in the DSFL. I'd be interested to see how many players spend a full 4 seasons in the DSFL year over year, because it definitely feels like more and more each season. Overall I definitely worry that using that 20 number is going to lead us to only expand to 16 teams, when if we used a roster size more in accordance to the average through league history we'd probably be looking at 18-20.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - Amidships - 01-20-2021
(01-20-2021, 05:10 AM)AdamS Wrote: #1 I didn't say 20 was normal. I said it was a full roster. Including multiple o-line players and at least one backup on each side. And as someone else alluded to...this number has never actually been a reality. It's literally the number I use because its so big it cant be called underselling.
#2 When you say all I'm doing is looking at roster counts and not who is and isn't active, and then you spit numbers back at me that I already used, it makes me wonder if you bothered to fully read the article, which extensively separates these groups.
#3 Yes, I agree teams would average less TPE all around. That's not a problem. It's a feature. The incredibly high TPE totals around the league are a big part of why teams are currently averaging 5 send downs apiece. This is not a thing to protect. This isn't PBE. We're here to get players onto the field. Not protect the stashes of GMs.
#4 No matter how many times you say this was the most pushed update in league history, it was the least active period for activity checks in 6 months. Representing it as a high point of activity in the face of that is not an argument that sits for me.
#5 Recruitment sizes are a consistently debated topic. They've been referred to as a fluke for nearly 2 real life years running. I'm tired of hearing about this wolf. It hasn't eaten the village yet.
Waiting until we are wildly overstuffed and have to panic expand is the main reason why the DSFL has had its biggest REAL problems. That being huge size fluctuations. Expanding across two seasons is a stable way to allow the DSFL to not be drained at once as it would really only remove about 40 people at max out of what was 75 stashed, without accounting for either S28 or S29's players. It's a stable way to get ahead of the curve and deal with the oversaturation of players. And yes no matter what else, any time the DSFL is in a position where its send downs outnumber its ACTUAL players, while ACTIVE ISFL rosters are at or near capacity, that's an oversaturation.
1. Just because a team has a full roster doesn't mean every player is active, earning, or contributing to the league. The current rosters are a bubble, and they're going to pop. Once the IAs are auto-killed by regression and the S22 class all retires, we drop off a cliff.
2. I'm saying your numbers are wrong; you say we have 345 active ISFL and DSFL players. I'm saying we had 348 players update in the last month, and several of them are not actually active. The numbers are inflated by GMs posting updates.
3. Fair. Decreasing parity is fine, but you can't tell me that throwing a sub 200 TPE player into the ISFL is going to be enjoyable for them. Retention will take a hit.
4. I think we're looking at the same information and are drawing different conclusions. Activity Checks being low, in my mind, screams "don't expand". Not to mention that Activity Checks are a flawed metric. How many DSFL teams use them to keep players alive so they can be usable for another season? (All of them.)
5. I think slm is correct that we had some really poor luck with our r/nfl post this season, but that just proves my point. We have to rely on the numbers we have now. Without knowing what happens when the S22 bubble bursts we are setting ourselves up for failure. It's too soon.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - Modern_Duke - 01-20-2021
(01-20-2021, 01:00 AM)r0tzbua Wrote:I was thinking about this too. Could cut it down to only showing 5 best games per stream, and then have a rule to have each team on stream a minimum of 10-11 times per season for fairness(01-20-2021, 12:07 AM)AdamS Wrote:(01-19-2021, 10:48 PM)excelsior Wrote: Something to think about. This league started with 6 teams total. That's just 3 games. No DSFL. Now we have 14 teams, and borderline expanding to 16. That's 8 games per night. Something to start thinking about is how sustainable it is to stream every single game. Might not be practical. Along with the DSFL that's a lot to ask for volunteers to give up each night.at about 45 minutes or so currently, we still have one of the shorter sim day time periods compared to other leagues
and thats before we consider the possibility of bye weeks
That's with the old sim, if you take a look at the new sims for the Prospect Bowl it will take quite longer.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - Pat - 01-20-2021
Honestly, I look at these numbers you gave and I just don't think we're quite ready to expand. Getting to 16 teams eventually is a great goal, but trying to force it before we're ready is a bad idea. Steg touched on this, but we shouldn't be striving to have a bunch of 200 TPE players being called up. They will get murdered by veterans. Now, if we were able to get 30-40 brand new users create for the Season 29 draft (and most stay active) then maybe I could see talking about expansion for S29. Right now I feel that the ISFL rosters are JUST hitting the point where teams can mostly field a full team. If we all of the sudden start taking 1-2 players from each team then we're going to end up doing more harm than good.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - Guunar - 01-20-2021
Have we thought about paying for advertising on social media? Might be worth looking into for a few bucks a month.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - CLG Rampage - 01-20-2021
(01-20-2021, 05:57 PM)Guunar Wrote: Have we thought about paying for advertising on social media? Might be worth looking into for a few bucks a month.
Won't say much, but it's something the recruitment team has been considering. We aren't totally sure what we're gonna be doing yet, but we'll figure it out.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - AdamS - 01-20-2021
(01-20-2021, 05:56 PM)Punter715 Wrote: Honestly, I look at these numbers you gave and I just don't think we're quite ready to expand. Getting to 16 teams eventually is a great goal, but trying to force it before we're ready is a bad idea. Steg touched on this, but we shouldn't be striving to have a bunch of 200 TPE players being called up. They will get murdered by veterans. Now, if we were able to get 30-40 brand new users create for the Season 29 draft (and most stay active) then maybe I could see talking about expansion for S29. Right now I feel that the ISFL rosters are JUST hitting the point where teams can mostly field a full team. If we all of the sudden start taking 1-2 players from each team then we're going to end up doing more harm than good.
The reason they'd get murdered is because the league is so oversaturated to start with.
@Amidships
"2. I'm saying your numbers are wrong; you say we have 345 active ISFL and DSFL players. I'm saying we had 348 players update in the last month, and several of them are not actually active. The numbers are inflated by GMs posting updates."
This is the only one that's not a pure difference of opinion so I'm not gonna quote all that and keep increasing it.
My numbers aren't based on updates. My numbers are clicking on each individual person in the league and seeing if they've been on site in the past ten days and made any posts. Your reliance on updates as the be all end all doesn't serve well because it relies on ignoring all the people who do things but don't update often.
My numbers are accurate.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - AdamS - 01-21-2021
(01-20-2021, 05:56 PM)Punter715 Wrote: Honestly, I look at these numbers you gave and I just don't think we're quite ready to expand. Getting to 16 teams eventually is a great goal, but trying to force it before we're ready is a bad idea. Steg touched on this, but we shouldn't be striving to have a bunch of 200 TPE players being called up. They will get murdered by veterans. Now, if we were able to get 30-40 brand new users create for the Season 29 draft (and most stay active) then maybe I could see talking about expansion for S29. Right now I feel that the ISFL rosters are JUST hitting the point where teams can mostly field a full team. If we all of the sudden start taking 1-2 players from each team then we're going to end up doing more harm than good.
The expansion I laid out IS for S29. S28-29 are the two draft classes in question.
RE: *Should We Expand (Hint: Yes) - Hallmonitor_20 - 01-21-2021
I'm pretty sure everytime Adam has brought up expansion we have expanded. He's like the groundhog of league growth.