An Obvious Confession and an Apology

[zaynzk]

What the actual fuck is wrong with people in this league. Why are people mad @infinitempg. Honestly, he didn't do anything wrong except be a nice guy and not betray an individuals confidence. This league has some serious meglomaniac personas who think they are bigger than an individual. Jiggly, a person I've notoriously not gotten on with, created a new account to shed some of the old stigma, came clean and outs the people who help him and you all help shit on those individuals. Are you fucking kidding me? Infy has done more for this league than pretty much anyone, yet in one sweeping blow he is villainized by people. Even people who were close to him. Honestly fucking disgusting and disappointing.

This is the correct take. As others have pointed out in the thread what Infinite helped Jiggly do was well within the rules at the time and that only changed due to the most recent rules summit. I also believe Infinite when he says that he respected Jiggly's wishes and kept that information confidential. I understand that people are upset about this, most notably Philly and London since they essentially lost out on a player/pick, but trying to take it out on Infinite is the wrong move.

  
Agreed with both of these. I think trying to help somebody have fun and be involved in a way that isn't harmful to anybody (minus Philly and London) should not cause what has happened. Personally, I think that we all know Infinite and that they have the best interest of the league and the players at heart. We should use this to set precedence in rule changes for the future, especially because I don't think (and I bet a lot of you agree with me) that this league is done growing yet. I hope that the league is around for a lot more time, and that dedicated users don't feel ashamed for trying to help out other users become a bigger part of our community. 


Also, I wasn't around for jiggly the first time, and I haven't heard of them until this. Was he a bad guy? I've gotten a little info and it seems like they didn't intentionally hurt someone or do anything extremely bad. So If it was a multi or phoenix or whatever for someone who intentionally hurt another user, or is a bad person, then I would get the backlash. I definitely don't have all the info, but I do believe that it's unfair to judge how terrible or bad a person is if they are just strange. 

I'm gonna go do my predictions.

Jiggly never did anything that would make them a bad person or a bad user. Jiggly just has always had the misfortune of being bullied and the butt of jokes constantly, and he is still mocked and bullied even when he was not around. It's a massive issue and it's why jiggly created the phoenix account, so he could get away from that and just enjoy the league. It's very frustrating that someone who has been in the league since S1, and someone who has been harassed and bullied since S1, cannot enjoy the league that they've been in forever. I helped jiggly check rules, I helped jiggly with stuff regarding the account and never told a soul out of respect for his wishes. The only thing I didn't know was the rookie task. 

Jiggly has been a victim of bullying and harassment, and is someone who deserves to be able to have a new account to get away from that. Even if jiggly isn't mocked or bullied or harassed as much now, it's still an issue and the reputation he has is because of people who never interact with him and who don't know who he is except for what other people say. He has never done anything worthy of punishment and he has never hurt anyone or done things wrong, maybe the biggest thing was Chicago a year or so ago with that situation, in which he fought for the team he cared about and that rubbed people the wrong way, but other than that jiggly's reputation is something that lasts because people make it last.

I'll be honest this feels a bit like revisionist history; yeah he was likely overly mocked for his mistakes; but he consistently was given chances in this league, PBE and SHL; only recently after like 4 years of doing this stuff has he started to really get given up on. In my interactions with Jiggly hes has been nothing but a dick himself. In my short time in the league i have seen Jiggly himself openly insult and berate users on this site and other sites then play the victim. In SHL he went undrafted since he burned bridges with his last players. If Jiggly came back and earned the respect back I think most of the league would accept him, I personally would if I believed he genuinly was trying to change.

I understand the need to want to create a new account to escape the shit. But come on he pulls this "this is not my fault its someone elses" every single time

[Oles]

What the actual fuck is wrong with people in this league. Why are people mad @infinitempg. Honestly, he didn't do anything wrong except be a nice guy and not betray an individuals confidence. This league has some serious meglomaniac personas who think they are bigger than an individual. Jiggly, a person I've notoriously not gotten on with, created a new account to shed some of the old stigma, came clean and outs the people who help him and you all help shit on those individuals. Are you fucking kidding me? Infy has done more for this league than pretty much anyone, yet in one sweeping blow he is villainized by people. Even people who were close to him. Honestly fucking disgusting and disappointing.

This is the correct take. As others have pointed out in the thread what Infinite helped Jiggly do was well within the rules at the time and that only changed due to the most recent rules summit. I also believe Infinite when he says that he respected Jiggly's wishes and kept that information confidential. I understand that people are upset about this, most notably Philly and London since they essentially lost out on a player/pick, but trying to take it out on Infinite is the wrong move.

  
Agreed with both of these. I think trying to help somebody have fun and be involved in a way that isn't harmful to anybody (minus Philly and London) should not cause what has happened. Personally, I think that we all know Infinite and that they have the best interest of the league and the players at heart. We should use this to set precedence in rule changes for the future, especially because I don't think (and I bet a lot of you agree with me) that this league is done growing yet. I hope that the league is around for a lot more time, and that dedicated users don't feel ashamed for trying to help out other users become a bigger part of our community. 


Also, I wasn't around for jiggly the first time, and I haven't heard of them until this. Was he a bad guy? I've gotten a little info and it seems like they didn't intentionally hurt someone or do anything extremely bad. So If it was a multi or phoenix or whatever for someone who intentionally hurt another user, or is a bad person, then I would get the backlash. I definitely don't have all the info, but I do believe that it's unfair to judge how terrible or bad a person is if they are just strange. 

I'm gonna go do my predictions.

Jiggly never did anything that would make them a bad person or a bad user. Jiggly just has always had the misfortune of being bullied and the butt of jokes constantly, and he is still mocked and bullied even when he was not around. It's a massive issue and it's why jiggly created the phoenix account, so he could get away from that and just enjoy the league. It's very frustrating that someone who has been in the league since S1, and someone who has been harassed and bullied since S1, cannot enjoy the league that they've been in forever. I helped jiggly check rules, I helped jiggly with stuff regarding the account and never told a soul out of respect for his wishes. The only thing I didn't know was the rookie task. 

Jiggly has been a victim of bullying and harassment, and is someone who deserves to be able to have a new account to get away from that. Even if jiggly isn't mocked or bullied or harassed as much now, it's still an issue and the reputation he has is because of people who never interact with him and who don't know who he is except for what other people say. He has never done anything worthy of punishment and he has never hurt anyone or done things wrong, maybe the biggest thing was Chicago a year or so ago with that situation, in which he fought for the team he cared about and that rubbed people the wrong way, but other than that jiggly's reputation is something that lasts because people make it last.

I'll be honest this feels a bit like revisionist history; yeah he was likely overly mocked for his mistakes; but he consistently was given chances in this league, PBE and SHL; only recently after like 4 years of doing this stuff has he started to really get given up on. In my interactions with Jiggly hes has been nothing but a dick himself. In my short time in the league i have seen Jiggly himself openly insult and berate users on this site and other sites then play the victim. In SHL he went undrafted since he burned bridges with his last players. If Jiggly came back and earned the respect back I think most of the league would accept him, I personally would if I believed he genuinly was trying to change.

I understand the need to want to create a new account to escape the shit. But come on he pulls this "this is not my fault its someone elses" every single time

I'm very confused how someone with less knowledge can call what I've said as revisionist history, considering I've seen first hand the bullying and harassment that happened. Jiggly was harassed and treated like he has been since day 1 of the ISFL, I cannot speak for other sim leagues, but I can speak first hand how people would avoid Orange county because jiggly was there, how people talked down on the Chicago blues because jiggly was gm, how people talked to jiggly in DSFL gm chats. Jiggly from the start of the league had people on his ass bullying and harassing him. We are not talking about PBE or SHL, we are talking about ISFL and his time here. Jiggly is passionate about his causes and teams, and sometimes people go overboard (everyone does it) and I get having an issue with that. However, what has happened with Jiggly is more than just being a dick, and that runs a person down. He wanted a fresh start and deserved a fresh start after what had happened in this league and how people treated him from the beginning.

[AdamS]

And I'm sorry that now there are people reacts g negatively towards others because they kept you a secret. "Oh no I liked Jiggly. Eww gross."

Don't even have a problem with Jiggly here, actually quite sympathetic to the situation and understand why a fresh start was desired. 

But you can't deny some well respected users helped conspire to keep a multi account user secret when not being sure if it was legal for a whole season. Don't think that's kinda messed up? These people were in war rooms at the time of the draft, and it would take a lot of convincing to make me think that knowledge of jggly's second account wasn't used.

No one's trying to deny that multiple respected users were involved as far as I can see. Generally when one points an Ace Attorney style figure to demand that someone admit something is true, there should be some leadup to that being in question first. Rather than everyone already agreeing to it ahead of time. 

Now, as generally agreed by everyone, several high profile users including 3 former members of HO were approached and asked about it and all seem to have come to the conclusion that it was in good faith and not actually against the rules as they existed. I know you framed it as "not sure if legal" and all that conspiratorial negative busoness but there's usually a term for things that aren't in the rulebook. It's legal. And if it wasn't, there wouldn't be not own but two new rules making it illegal. 

Is it messed up? I don't think so. I can think of some other things in the very recent past that were totally messed up though.

I wouldn't expect the league's Rita Skeeter to see the issue with stirring the pot yet again so quickly though. 

Someone wanted something positive and others helped. Others who's judgement is well regarded. If you view that as a negative it's because you brought that negativity with you. Now you may go. I'm sure you have a "what entirely negative opinions about every member of HO" article to work on.

For someone who's trying to grandstand about people talking shit you're doing quite a good job of making personal and pointed attacks here. How about we don't do that? Jimi didn't come out and call people names or anything like that, he simply said, "this doesn't seem legal and feels wrong." You can simply disagree using the points you did and leave it at that. Not sure why you felt it necessary to go from conversing to attacking.

He published that bullshit and then he comes in here stirring the pot trying to paint an overly negative picture make things worse than they are. Again.

He also did NOT "simply say" it felt wrong. He straight up called people out based on it and complained about franchises being damaged and clearly generally just went way above what you're saying here.

Dudes caused nothing but damage the past few days and clearly taking/facilitating personal shots at people and you're over here tsk tsking me for not responding with perfect ladylike charm and grace while you downplay what he's doing. Pure ridiculousness.

[Sermokala]

People don't forgive and they don't forget. You learn to carry the chains of your mistakes along with you in life and do your best to not burden yourself with any more mistakes.

People don't care about why you do things in real life they wouldn't change that for online. Your name is the only shred of humanity you have left in an online world. We can hope things would be better but in every example people are just worse online.

[iStegosauruz]

So I'm going to try to give some insight from the perspective of someone who was in the room during a lot of the decisions around how we recently have handled multis and to some extent how those decisions impacted this situation. As always even though I'm commenting from my personal perspective as Head Office my words are not indicative for that of the entire body so please no one demonize any of my fellow members for what was my position during the situation. 

I absolutely understand where Jiggly was coming from in wanting a chance to forge a new identity. Although there are very few people in the league who have faced the same amount of public vitriol as they have anyone who has been on the frontline of a dramatic situation in the league knows it can really get to you. I can't put myself entirely in Jiggly's shoes but I can empathize to some extent from the situations I've been in that have gotten me blasted publicly for. 

That all being said, blanket allowing second accounts with no repercussions is a dangerous thing to do. The biggest glaring issue that I had is that with the ability to create a new anonymous account came the detachment of reality from a lot of situations. The league can already be a toxic place as is and allowing someone to say or do whatever they like and then pull a ripcord and be an entirely new person only increases the toxicity in my mind. In the status quo - or a status quo where anonymous second accounts aren't allowed - you have to pick and choose your words to some extent because the reputation you build follows you. If that didn't happen there's less of an incentive to pick and choose your words. Thats a negative for the league in my mind. 

The second issue I had with allowing anonymous second accounts was the issue that it creates with potential "revenge" accounts. We'd all hate it if someone created an account, strategically tried to get a team to draft them, and then retired immediately to fuck that team over out of spite for something done previously. There's a way for allowing it to be weaponized thats also a negative for the league. 

There were plenty of smaller things I considered but those were my two biggest issues. That being said, I don't personally think Jiggly was trying to do either of those things with this second account. We spent several days trying to formulate a potential exception but we struggled to create one that didn't require us to weigh whether one person's trauma was either more or less deserving of an exception. Thats a prickly thing to be tasked with and something that I think would be a ticking time bomb of issues within the league. 

We also ran into the issue with this situation that no matter what we did Jiggly had broken the rule about not being allowed to do rookie tasks a second time. That is something we would punish for which begged the question about whether the punishment should be publicly posted or not. The issue we ran into there was that if we weren't going to post it we had to have a concise and fair rule for what punishments got an exception to being publicly posted. The moment we posted a punishment about the Taka account having done the rookie tasks a second time is the moment we'd essentially blow Jiggly's cover. 

All of this came together to form a very complicated situation. I fully understand there will be different perspectives about how we handled the situation and thats understandable. My hope wasn't that Jiggly would retire the Taka account because I think they had a lot more allies than they knew about - even those who didn't know the breadth of the situation before it came out publicly. I do hope they decide to come back to the league and give it another shot - for as many people as there are who can be toxic and negative there are four times as many people who are supportive and kind. 

As an aside, I think the league needs to be less harsh on those who knew about the situation prior to it coming out publicly. Someone relied on them in confidence about things that were difficult for them and I don't think thats a bad thing or something we should be discouraging.

[DeadlyPlayer]

This is the correct take. As others have pointed out in the thread what Infinite helped Jiggly do was well within the rules at the time and that only changed due to the most recent rules summit. I also believe Infinite when he says that he respected Jiggly's wishes and kept that information confidential. I understand that people are upset about this, most notably Philly and London since they essentially lost out on a player/pick, but trying to take it out on Infinite is the wrong move.

  
Agreed with both of these. I think trying to help somebody have fun and be involved in a way that isn't harmful to anybody (minus Philly and London) should not cause what has happened. Personally, I think that we all know Infinite and that they have the best interest of the league and the players at heart. We should use this to set precedence in rule changes for the future, especially because I don't think (and I bet a lot of you agree with me) that this league is done growing yet. I hope that the league is around for a lot more time, and that dedicated users don't feel ashamed for trying to help out other users become a bigger part of our community. 


Also, I wasn't around for jiggly the first time, and I haven't heard of them until this. Was he a bad guy? I've gotten a little info and it seems like they didn't intentionally hurt someone or do anything extremely bad. So If it was a multi or phoenix or whatever for someone who intentionally hurt another user, or is a bad person, then I would get the backlash. I definitely don't have all the info, but I do believe that it's unfair to judge how terrible or bad a person is if they are just strange. 

I'm gonna go do my predictions.

Jiggly never did anything that would make them a bad person or a bad user. Jiggly just has always had the misfortune of being bullied and the butt of jokes constantly, and he is still mocked and bullied even when he was not around. It's a massive issue and it's why jiggly created the phoenix account, so he could get away from that and just enjoy the league. It's very frustrating that someone who has been in the league since S1, and someone who has been harassed and bullied since S1, cannot enjoy the league that they've been in forever. I helped jiggly check rules, I helped jiggly with stuff regarding the account and never told a soul out of respect for his wishes. The only thing I didn't know was the rookie task. 

Jiggly has been a victim of bullying and harassment, and is someone who deserves to be able to have a new account to get away from that. Even if jiggly isn't mocked or bullied or harassed as much now, it's still an issue and the reputation he has is because of people who never interact with him and who don't know who he is except for what other people say. He has never done anything worthy of punishment and he has never hurt anyone or done things wrong, maybe the biggest thing was Chicago a year or so ago with that situation, in which he fought for the team he cared about and that rubbed people the wrong way, but other than that jiggly's reputation is something that lasts because people make it last.

I'll be honest this feels a bit like revisionist history; yeah he was likely overly mocked for his mistakes; but he consistently was given chances in this league, PBE and SHL; only recently after like 4 years of doing this stuff has he started to really get given up on. In my interactions with Jiggly hes has been nothing but a dick himself. In my short time in the league i have seen Jiggly himself openly insult and berate users on this site and other sites then play the victim. In SHL he went undrafted since he burned bridges with his last players. If Jiggly came back and earned the respect back I think most of the league would accept him, I personally would if I believed he genuinly was trying to change.

I understand the need to want to create a new account to escape the shit. But come on he pulls this "this is not my fault its someone elses" every single time

I'm very confused how someone with less knowledge can call what I've said as revisionist history, considering I've seen first hand the bullying and harassment that happened. Jiggly was harassed and treated like he has been since day 1 of the ISFL, I cannot speak for other sim leagues, but I can speak first hand how people would avoid Orange county because jiggly was there, how people talked down on the Chicago blues because jiggly was gm, how people talked to jiggly in DSFL gm chats. Jiggly from the start of the league had people on his ass bullying and harassing him. We are not talking about PBE or SHL, we are talking about ISFL and his time here. Jiggly is passionate about his causes and teams, and sometimes people go overboard (everyone does it) and I get having an issue with that. However, what has happened with Jiggly is more than just being a dick, and that runs a person down. He wanted a fresh start and deserved a fresh start after what had happened in this league and how people treated him from the beginning.

yeah nah, should anyone be bullied no. Did he also make multiple people uncomfortable and throw himself into the middle of drama? Yes. Does he deserve a fresh start? Not my say, but stop acting like all of it was 100% bullying.

[TakaMori152]

yeah nah, should anyone be bullied no. Did he also make multiple people uncomfortable and throw himself into the middle of drama? Yes. Does he deserve a fresh start? Not my say, but stop acting like all of it was 100% bullying.

I have made every effort to say that I need to be told what I'm doing that is making people uncomfortable so I can try to work on it. I would like to try to speak to the people who I apparently offend to try to find common ground, but so far in my three years of offering this no one has actually come to me with concrete concerns. I think once Muford told me some things to work on and I've tried to do a better job at those things (being less negative, not trying to take over the conversation). Otherwise, people simply assume I get the hint, which I clearly am not good at getting. That's why I didn't want to talk to anyone anymore once I decided to become Taka. I've finally accepted how terrible I am at communication and if you want me to stop talking I will. Just allow me to defend myself at least.
And in terms of "throwing myself into drama", I truly wanted to try to be a mediator in a lot of circumstances. Or at least, I wanted to try to stand up for people that I felt needed to have someone stand up for them. I chose wrong a lot of times, defended people who weren't worth defending in the end. At some point I thought that if I helped people, I might be able to fix my reputation. But that's the thing that backfired on me.
I am overly aggressive, I am too passionate for my own good, and I am loyal to a literal fault. I understand that it might make people uncomfortable, but I don't know if I am unless someone tells me. All I've ever asked for was better communication. And all I ever got back was silence or mockery.

[DeadlyPlayer]

yeah nah, should anyone be bullied no. Did he also make multiple people uncomfortable and throw himself into the middle of drama? Yes. Does he deserve a fresh start? Not my say, but stop acting like all of it was 100% bullying.

I have made every effort to say that I need to be told what I'm doing that is making people uncomfortable so I can try to work on it. I would like to try to speak to the people who I apparently offend to try to find common ground, but so far in my three years of offering this no one has actually come to me with concrete concerns. I think once Muford told me some things to work on and I've tried to do a better job at those things (being less negative, not trying to take over the conversation). Otherwise, people simply assume I get the hint, which I clearly am not good at getting. That's why I didn't want to talk to anyone anymore once I decided to become Taka. I've finally accepted how terrible I am at communication and if you want me to stop talking I will. Just allow me to defend myself at least.
And in terms of "throwing myself into drama", I truly wanted to try to be a mediator in a lot of circumstances. Or at least, I wanted to try to stand up for people that I felt needed to have someone stand up for them. I chose wrong a lot of times, defended people who weren't worth defending in the end. At some point I thought that if I helped people, I might be able to fix my reputation. But that's the thing that backfired on me.
I am overly aggressive, I am too passionate for my own good, and I am loyal to a literal fault. I understand that it might make people uncomfortable, but I don't know if I am unless someone tells me. All I've ever asked for was better communication. And all I ever got back was silence or mockery.

Listen, if I had my way, I would have no problem with a new account and no one knowing. But the way Oles was really trying to whitewash the history was a little upsetting. I fully believe in you as a user. I enjoyed our limited interactions as takamori.

[Raven]

Finally going to properly comment on this a day late, as I was moving all day yesterday and by the time I was properly set up it was Jeopardy time. As one of the people who was in the know of it I feel like I need to post about it. Even if I am not held up to higher esteem. Just a joke no worry.

Going to say that all my feelings can basically be summed up by Infin's original post about the matter. Jiggly came to me to tell his new wacky plan and asked if it was posible. I checked the rulebook for him and as long as his older account was no longer considered active or had an actively playing player on it, this was basically legal for him to do. That is all that mattered in that situation to me.

Now was it wrong of me to keep this information to myself? Eh the morals are debateable, but at the end of the day I do not feel like I did anything wrong keeping it to myself. I did not use the information to stir any draft decisions regarding Jiggly. If we ended up drafting him I would have continiud to interact with them as if I did not know them. It's kinda sad the way people have been talking about Philly/London and the fact that they drafted him. While I absolutely get the reasong that it feels like you are being lied to who you got in the draft. We are kinda on the internet where everyone has their anonymity if they choose and therefor can act or be someone they are not. If Jiggly had played out their players entire career and then revealed who they were I bet people would be less annoyed, because they just got to know a pleasent side of Jiggly.

As for the stigma around Jiggly, it's hard to ignore that both ends have done their fair share of damage to reputation. Jiggly hasn't always done the smartest things, but I don't think anyone has. On the otherside his name has been memed and spoken poorly about to hell and back. I have seen enough people say that they have personally never interacted with Jiggly, but through mouth to mouth just do not want to interact with him. This has caused Jiggly to be put in a position where enjoying sim leagues is hard. He went undrafted basically twice in a row in the SHL recently. I think it is the issue of a persons username, as am guilty of doing the same. Going through the draft list, picking out names and being like, oh I have interacted once with this person once and didnt like it. DND this son of a gun. Jiggly's name just holds a lot of weight to it and who's fault that is we can debate to the end of the world about. I think in the past Jiggly has been very passionate about things (i.e. Chicago/Baltimore) and made some mistakes, but just cannot outrun them with the constant meming and shit talking. So I can't blame a person for wanting a fresh start and being able to try and enjoy a sim league again. Could Jiggly have stayed on his OG account, held his head down, tried to just focus on media and paying attention to what he said in which chats? Maybe, but I can also see the stigma just following him for a long time.

Lastly the new multi rules. I am going to pull a recent example from this thread and that is Stego saying something about 'revenge accounts'. I have also seen this been said in other places. It is just a very weak argument in favour for them. People know what VPNs are in 2021. If people really want to be cunts and recreate new accounts to try and trick teams into drafting them so they can instantly retire afterwards, they can. This also kinda goes for the general idea of not wanting toxic people to be able to just show up and act all friendly. It happens. Look at with zamir/excelsior recently. If someone really wants to be a cunt they will. I get the idea behind the rule, but I also just think its so shit. I guess it has to be in place to cover butts. As now what Jiggly & YTB did is truely illegal and someone can't point to that technicality and say, hey it's legal. It just hurts people who generally want a new start at the league without previous stigma. And the people who really want to do bad things can still do it.

Oh well, this are just my ramblings regarding the topic. tdlr: Rule is stupid, but needed to cover butts I guess. #JusticeForYTB, got ruled a multi, but wasn't.

and before someone makes a joke regarding 'stigma', stigma nuts in yo face bitch.

[Jo3fish5]

amogus