*Carmel Gibson has spent too much TPE

[37thchamber]

I meant the player, not the Hawks as a team. My belief is that the player should be removed immediately.

Again, why? He hasn't actually broken any rules.
I'm not opposed to a temporary suspension etc but whatever happens will set a precedent. I don't like the idea of setting a precedent where a player can be punished for something that isn't their fault.

[Kristy95]

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it appears as though that is exactly what happened, though. Meaning the solution is to put tighter controls and checks in place to prevent it happening again.

Why is there any call to "punish" anyone? It makes no sense. There's nobody to punish.

If there was some suggestion that it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules, or unfairly benefit a team then sure, there should be a punishment... But that's not the case here as far as I can see.


Yeah, the Hawks benefited, nobody is denying that... but unless you're saying we should re-sim the entire season so far (lol) there's nothing we can do about that. Any other action against the Hawks would be to punish them for something outside their control... Which is, frankly, bullshit.


This is the point I'm trying to make.

At the very least the updater should be fired. He updated a player who didn't have any claims for 120 TPE in one update. How does that even happen?

And arguably you could make that case in many ways. When the Patriots got punished for a guy videotaping the Jets practice, its very possible that wasn't the teams fault, but they lost picks from that.

[Kristy95]

Again, why? He hasn't actually broken any rules.
I'm not opposed to a temporary suspension etc but whatever happens will set a precedent. I don't like the idea of setting a precedent where a player can be punished for something that isn't their fault.

What do you MEAN? He added 120 TPE to his player. He is inactive anyway, why does it matter if he is removed?

[manicmav36]

Again, why? He hasn't actually broken any rules.
I'm not opposed to a temporary suspension etc but whatever happens will set a precedent. I don't like the idea of setting a precedent where a player can be punished for something that isn't their fault.

Agreed. Unless there was obvious malicious intent (doesn't look like it) just reset his TPE and allow his player to finish out the season.

[Oles]

Again, why? He hasn't actually broken any rules.
I'm not opposed to a temporary suspension etc but whatever happens will set a precedent. I don't like the idea of setting a precedent where a player can be punished for something that isn't their fault.

The thing is he illegally added 100+ TPE to his player without any sort of updates associated with it. It'd be one thing if it was an accidentally typo on an update that was fixed fast, it's another thing that he just slipped by 100+ TPE and the updater never noticed it.

[manicmav36]

And arguably you could make that case in many ways. When the Patriots got punished for a guy videotaping the Jets practice, its very possible that wasn't the teams fault, but they lost picks from that.

You're setting a dangerous precedent here. By doing this, you're forcing GMs to look over ever player's update page every week. The parallels between the NFL and the NSFL don't work well here. One is a full-time business, the other is something people do for fun.

[124715]

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it appears as though that is exactly what happened, though. Meaning the solution is to put tighter controls and checks in place to prevent it happening again.

Why is there any call to "punish" anyone? It makes no sense. There's nobody to punish.

If there was some suggestion that it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules, or unfairly benefit a team then sure, there should be a punishment... But that's not the case here as far as I can see.

That's exactly the problem. There's no one at fault. Instead, we have to look hard into the inner workings of the league so that it doesn't happen again. Gibson was a vital part of the air attack in Baltimore. Let's say I'd been claiming all my TPE twice. There is exactly one person to blame for that: me (maybe the updater for not catching it, but I'd get the punishment). It's not like that here.

Yeah, the Hawks benefited, nobody is denying that... but unless you're saying we should re-sim the entire season so far (lol) there's nothing we can do about that. Any other action against the Hawks would be to punish them for something outside their control... Which is, frankly, bullshit.

We can't re-sim the games (although we obviously should) so we're just gonna have to keep this. We can't punish the Hawks bc it's not their responsibility to audit their players. Gibson will probably be taken out of the sim until the HO decides what to do with him and #GibsonGate. I'll advocate for retirement, but he might just be reset to his archetype base with 50 banked, or have his stats reduced to 50.

The reason this is a story is that there's no one to take the fall for this. Every person could've had some role in it. Maybe if the GM had been browsing his players' attributes, he'd have seen it. I posted in his player thread; how did I miss it? That's why it's an interesting story. There's no one to punish. A crime without a committer.

[124715]

You're setting a dangerous precedent here. By doing this, you're forcing GMs to look over ever player's update page every week. The parallels between the NFL and the NSFL don't work well here. One is a full-time business, the other is something people do for fun.

We don't really have anything else to base this off of. The Head office has been mysteriously quiet with this... they're likely working something out (or sleeping). I'm sure it's happened in another sim league, maybe the SHL? What did they do?

[37thchamber]

What do you MEAN? He added 120 TPE to his player. He is inactive anyway, why does it matter if he is removed?

Unless I'm misreading things here, it looks like those TPE were added at creation though... so doesn't that mean that what actually happened is his player was approved/updated incorrectly.

That's... not really his fault.

The thing is he illegally added 100+ TPE to his player without any sort of updates associated with it.

Except it appears that he didn't actually "add" anything. It looks like it was an error made at creation which should have been caught before the update thread was even created.

As things stand, there is no reason to believe this was deliberate. So why all the pitchforks?

Suspend the guy until a solution can be found, that's fair.
Reset him to 50 TPE, that's fair.
Hell, even forced retirement wouldn't really be unfair (especially considering he's inactive)
Bring in new measures to prevent this happening again, makes perfect sense.

But how do you punish someone for a crime that nobody actually committed as far as we can tell? That's all I'm saying.

[kckolbe]

So, I think the biggest issue is that updaters need to know what kind of issues to look for. I think Gibson should not be allowed to participate in any more sims in any season so that other, legal TEs can pass him in stats. Sanderson can be their starter.

As a recommendation, I think we need to reorganize updaters not by team, but by position. If Gibson were checked by someone who ONLY looked at TEs, I think the high values would have jumped out.

The Hawks HAVE benefitted, but I am also concerned about precedent. I am, however, more concerned about an unfair victory. There are 3 NSFC teams basically dead even in the playoff hunt. 1 of those teams had a significant advantage they didn't deserve. I propose that the Hawks lose all tiebreakers for this year's race. That won't hurt them long term, but it will prevent them from unfairly benefitting from this too much.